The blockbuster film "Barbie" is a journey through fantasy to our flawed reality revealing profound truths about gender discrimination and societal norms. In this episode, our guests Jan Langbein, Bianca Davis, and Amy Jones uncover the layers of patriarchy skilfully woven into the narrative of the 2023 film. We traverse from Barbie's idyllic origins to her encounter with the harsh realities faced by women, discussing how these fictional events mirror the gender biases that permeate our professional and personal lives.
Our conversation isn't just about the silver screen. We shed light on the shadowy corners of gender inequality, addressing how ambition in women is often misconstrued while their male counterparts are praised for similar traits. The episode navigates through Barbie's confrontation with corporate giants, reflecting the pressures to conform, and extends the discussion to real situations faced by survivors of domestic violence, human trafficking, and sexual assault. We mingle our expertise with experiences, unpacking how systemic issues fortify traditional gender roles and the importance of sisterhood in overcoming them.
The dialogue takes a turn as we dissect the complexities of the 'Tradwife' movement, the objectification of women, and the crucial fight for survivors of sexual assault within the legal labyrinth. Our guests bring a wealth of knowledge and personal insights to this episode, offering a powerful message that leaves you not only enlightened but empowered to be part of the change for gender equality.
The blockbuster film "Barbie" is a journey through fantasy to our flawed reality revealing profound truths about gender discrimination and societal norms. In this episode, our guests Jan Langbein, Bianca Davis, and Amy Jones uncover the layers of patriarchy skilfully woven into the narrative of the 2023 film. We traverse from Barbie's idyllic origins to her encounter with the harsh realities faced by women, discussing how these fictional events mirror the gender biases that permeate our professional and personal lives.
Our conversation isn't just about the silver screen. We shed light on the shadowy corners of gender inequality, addressing how ambition in women is often misconstrued while their male counterparts are praised for similar traits. The episode navigates through Barbie's confrontation with corporate giants, reflecting the pressures to conform, and extends the discussion to real situations faced by survivors of domestic violence, human trafficking, and sexual assault. We mingle our expertise with experiences, unpacking how systemic issues fortify traditional gender roles and the importance of sisterhood in overcoming them.
The dialogue takes a turn as we dissect the complexities of the 'Tradwife' movement, the objectification of women, and the crucial fight for survivors of sexual assault within the legal labyrinth. Our guests bring a wealth of knowledge and personal insights to this episode, offering a powerful message that leaves you not only enlightened but empowered to be part of the change for gender equality.
The blockbuster film Barbie, released in the summer of 2023 and turned the lens on patriarchy, revealing the remarkable truth about gender discrimination and how women really feel about it. To discuss the dynamics of the film within the context of domestic violence, sexual violence and human trafficking, we gather with Jan Langvine of Genesis, bianca Davis of New Friends, new Life and Amy Jones of Dallas Area Rape Crisis Center. I'm Maria McMullen and this is Genesis, the podcast. Jan Langvine is the CEO of Genesis Women's Shelter and Support and a recognized national expert on domestic violence who conducts training and workshops across the country. Under Jan's leadership, genesis has grown from a seven-room emergency shelter to a full-service response for survivors of domestic violence, including women and children.
Speaker 1:Bianca Davis serves as CEO of New Friends, new Life, a 25-year-old nonprofit agency in Dallas, texas, that restores and empowers women and girls who have been trafficked or exploited. Bianca is a 2023 presidential leadership scholar with a combined 20 years of experience in health care, communications and social services. Amy Jones is a licensed professional counselor supervisor currently serving as CEO for Dallas Area Rape Crisis Center. Her professional focus for the past 15 years has been to support and advocate for survivors in the movement to end violence against women. Jan, amy Bianca, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you, maria. It is awesome to be here and I love being with these amazing colleagues here. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1:Okay, jan, we're going to start with you. We're going to talk about the Barbie movie, which is something that we've all talked about before and since ever. It ever came out, and we can't stop talking about it. For people who may not have seen the movie yet, let's review the basic plot. Margot Robbie, who plays Barbie in the movie she is the most popular of all the Barbies in Barbie land and she begins experiencing an existential crisis. She is supposed to travel to the human world in order to understand herself and discover her true purpose. She has a boyfriend in the film and his name is Ken. I'm sure we're all familiar with Ken, barbie and Ken, who's played by Ryan Gosling. Ken comes along for the ride when she travels to the human world because his own existence depends on Barbie acknowledging him. They both discover some pretty harsh truths, they make new friends and they really take the road to enlightenment. Before we dive into all the questions about the film, tell me what you thought of the movie. I'll jump in and tell us why. Jan, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Jan, go ahead, I'll jump in At first. When it first came out, I really thought it was just going to be a silly kids movie. People dressed up in pink and they had lots of spandex and go have your picture made in a box at the theater, kind of thing. I thought it was just going to be a funster movie. I ended up taking my granddaughter as I sat there and I watched it and I thought I was the only one catching those underlying messages. At the end I turned to Rosemary and I said did you like it? She said this is my nine-year-old. She said yeah, I did. I said what was it about? She goes well, patriarchy. I'm like okay, my work here is done. She's nine, she's nine, yeah, she's nine. Yes, I liked it, but I think I liked it for other reasons than other people do or did when they saw it. I think a lot of people did have fun dressing up in pink spandex. To me, there's a lot more that we're going to talk about during this time together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of substance to the film and the messages that came out of it. Amy and Bianca, how about you?
Speaker 3:I liked it as well. I wasn't prepared for how nostalgic it would be for me when I saw the house and the pool and the car. It took me back to being a three-year-old, a four-year-old growing up in the Bahamas, playing with my Barbie dolls, growing up in a different country, having the same experience as other girls all over the world. That was the very connecting moment for me. I wasn't prepared for how much it took me back to that part of my childhood. It also highlighted for me the importance and the power of messages, how messages are just embedded throughout society. Every day we are being shaped and influenced by messages that are going out into the world. That all came to me as I sat there and watched it.
Speaker 4:That's a fun image, Bianca. I'm imagining Sweet Little Bianca playing with her.
Speaker 4:Barbie at the Bellevue Barbie Dream House. I liked it. Nobody who knows me is going to be shocked that I'm not one of the people who dressed up in pink and went to the movies with a bunch of girls. It looked like so much fun. That's just not really my thing. I liked it. I liked, I think, the conversations that I've had after much better than I enjoyed the movie itself. The movie was fun. It was cute. I laughed. There were some really cute scenes. I loved Ryan Gosling in this movie. I thought he was hysterical. I think the acting was really outstanding. The conversations that it has sparked have been so much richer than I ever expected. Even going into the movie and even knowing that we were going to have this conversation here, it's really surprised me the depth of conversation I've had. As a result, I really like it for that reason.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic feedback. There's a lot of depth here. First talk about Barbie. If you all can comment on what are some of the things she immediately noticed when entering the real world? How did her reaction differ from Ken's?
Speaker 2:I'm happy to jump in there. It was not surprising to me, but when Barbie entered the real world she felt scared. It wasn't what she was used to, it wasn't her comfort zone. And that was very different from Ken entering into a patriarchal society. He just thought he had landed in the best place possible. But you could tell the more Barbie was there, the more friendly she tried to be, the more acclimated she was trying to become, the more frightening there was just too many. There are too many scary things for Barbie in the real world and that's very typical to the women all three of us see. There's really scary things out in the real world.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think it was a reminder of how the oneness is often put on the woman or the victim in different situations to prove that they are being victimized or to prove that something bad or wrong is happening. So, whether you're looking at domestic violence or in the issue of the example of rape, or in sex trafficking, it's like tell us why it wasn't just your choice, or what were you wearing, or how did you provoke it. And that real world is scary for us to grow up in, this patriarchal environment where the oneness and the responsibility seems to fall on the victim every time, even with the way the laws are designed. Because, for example, in the issue in the case of sex trafficking, you have to prove force, fraud or coercion. And how do you prove that she didn't want to be on that date or that she didn't want to just work in that club or she didn't just make a choice? So it's scary when you're the victim, but you're the one that has to prove that something bad or wrong is happening here.
Speaker 4:I think there's something so powerful about just that reality that oftentimes we forget that it is scary to be female in our world and that is a fear that is intrinsic in so many of us and whether we realize it or not, I think when we start talking about it we all start to recognize just that general sense of fear. Can I go to the grocery store after dark? Can I walk to my car? Do I need to make sure that? How many friends do I need to let know that I'm going on a date? I mean just, it's woven into our lives and it shapes everything that we do. And that power dynamic in and of itself sets us up to make different life choices than men in our culture and starts to, I think, open up the conversation about power and who has the power. And that's what we saw with Barbie when she walked into the real world. She didn't have the power anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in that same sort of time in the movie, I noticed how few choices Barbie had, few opportunities to do what she wanted once she got to the real world, whereas Ken was like today I think I'll be a doctor, today I'm going to be a cowboy, and there's just opportunity after opportunity in a patriarchal society for just Ken, where Barbie was really pretty limited.
Speaker 1:So let's talk a little bit more about how the movie aims to prove that the real world is set up to more easily benefit men. What are some examples from the film that we could really draw from?
Speaker 2:Well, do you all remember? He walked into a building and is like I think I'd like a job here, and he goes you don't have to know anything, you don't have to have a history of experience of anything. Then he walked into a hospital and said I think I'll do surgery today. It's not quite that easy, though, right? Well, it's not. It's not, but Ken was convinced of it, and if you're, sometimes when men are convinced, they're pretty awesome, they act awesome and they expect people to treat them in an awesome way, and typically they can get ahead.
Speaker 1:That's right. What's the difference for women? I mean? I think I know the answer, but let's talk about it, the difference being the more that women push, the more they're called pushy or bossy and still don't get ahead. That's right, and Barbie experienced this.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't think she got to the pushy point. I think she was in a land of insecurity. She was afraid she was surprised by different responses from the teenagers in the high school to the men at the construction site. You know, it shocked her, it frightened her and no, I don't think she did push.
Speaker 3:I was thinking about the part of the movie where and we had this discussion offline where it seemed as if she was using her feminine wiles and her beauty and other things other than just intellect, to kind of get a movement going. She was resorting to some of these very standard stereotypical ways of a woman that I think showed up that men don't have to resort to. You know, and even in the film we don't know if that was intentional or accidental, but that was definitely a message that came across is that, even if it was intended to be empowering here, she was trying to be this attractive and cute and let me mesmerize you woman, instead of just being able to have the same options and choices as a man would.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we talked a lot about that when I think about that scene where she saw the girl that you mentioned, jan, in the school cafeteria, she went to find her you know the girl who played with her, or the, I guess, the daughter of the girl who had played with this Barbie and the girl said you know women, if I remember correctly, women hate each other and or women hate you, right, like like we hate you, we hate Barbie, and kind of that message that women don't like women and women don't support women.
Speaker 4:And this was such a shock for Barbie coming out of Barbie land, where there was so much support and love and you know kind of shared power and experience and, I think, for her to walk into that world. What a contrast to the world that Ken walked into, where he felt so beloved and he felt so, as he said, respected. I felt respected and she absolutely felt the opposite of that. And that is we talked about this too when we were all you know in person that that's one of the benefits, I think, of our organizations is that we, we don't hate each other, we don't hate women, we support women, we believe women and we help them move the roadblocks that exist in the patriarchy, that exist in this world so that they're not having to live in such a, you know, a fearful way. So so, just for her to experience that truth, I think that reality. That was a moment for me in the movie that I really kind of had to chew on.
Speaker 1:So Barbie was created by these Mattel executives and it's a make believe world that she lived in, right? It's fantasy and the fantasy was developed by men. So men are all of the executives and the creators of Barbie and her image and her beauty and what she's able to do and what she's not able to do. So then we fast forward to a scene in the film when Barbie enters the boardroom of those Mattel executives and they're talking about wanting to get her back in the box as quickly as possible. Tell us, each of you respond to it. You know what does that mean? What's your interpretation of that?
Speaker 2:For me, that was one of the more poignant messages you know. I heard, amy, what you just said about what, what you had to chew on. This one was a lot for me. And, if you remember, she didn't walk in there on her own accord. She was snatched off the street and taken to these men and immediately they were in a rush to get her back in the box.
Speaker 2:Well, what does that mean? Get back in the box to where you're sweet and nice. Get back in the box to where you are what we want you to be, which is cute and darling and perfect looking and all of that. But I think so much of how many times the women that we see at Genesis Women's Shelter and Support are told to get back in the box. They're told to get back in the box by the guy who has the power and control over her in that abusive relationship, but also she's told by the courts go get back in that box. She's told by a pastor or a friend you need to go back and get back in that box and get back to status quo, and so that one, that scene, meant a lot to me. I think there's so many systems that are constantly saying to survivors of domestic violence. You need to go back and get back in that box.
Speaker 1:And that box can look a little different for each of us right, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:I had a Barbie that came with nothing but a bathing suit and high heels, which, of course, every girl dreams of a bathing suit and high heels but then now they come with a whole vet set or they come with an astronaut outfit. To your point, different Barbies have different things. Different women who come to Genesis come from different things, but we're all told we need to be in that box, stay in the box.
Speaker 1:Yes, amy, what about you?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So the first thing that you need to do in that box is the good girl, right? Yes, you've got to be the good girl. Even if you are the stay-at-home mom or you're the corporate working woman, you still need to be the good girl.
Speaker 4:And we know that oftentimes the good girl in our culture looks a very specific way. She's usually a certain color, she's usually a certain weight, she has a certain educational level, she has a certain amount of social cachet, she is considered pure and worthy of protection, and we see this all the time and I know Bianca does too, and so does Jan with the women who walk through our doors. The minute that they exist as a real person outside of that box, the jury doesn't know what to do with that, right? If it wasn't a real rape where it was a stranger who jumped out from behind a bush, then she must have had something to do with it, because clearly she's too promiscuous or she was wearing the wrong thing or she agreed to go on that date. So the box, I think, is the trope of the good girl, and it has to look a really, really specific way, and I think we see that all the time, we see that every day here.
Speaker 3:And I think that also, it extends to representation as well that if we're ever going to drive change in any area, there has to be representation from all affected parties. That can be women, that can be women of color, that can be, you know, whoever is underrepresented in the issue. If you're going to change it, there has to be representation. Going back in the box means we don't want to hear any other point of view, we don't want to get any other perspective from any marginalized group or any underrepresented group. We just just do what we say, we make the rules and you just comply. And so it's important that we have women who are in leadership in agencies like ours. It is important that women are represented on the judges bench. It's important that women are represented in legislature, in any area that shapes policy and that leads to change. There has to be that representation, that voice that says this is what it's like to be me. This is how these decisions impact me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate that feedback as well, because I my takeaway is anything outside of the norm is a threat. It's a threat to the power and control that patriarchy or the abuser or that men have over women and all of society. And when there's a threat, there needs to be a pushback. And somebody's going to be pushed down Right, and it's usually her Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Bianca, amy, one of you all, when we were speaking together, talked about tradwives and I've thought about that a lot. These are it's kind of a movement in our country for women to voluntarily get back in a box and I think maybe okay, fine, you like to stay home and you like to cook dinner and have a cool drink for your husband when he comes home? That's fine if that works for you. But it can't be kept through the use of physical force and I swear to my time I've been doing this work long enough that it's going to explode on them, and it really is. I don't. I just think it will be taken advantage of. It's too vulnerable, it's too easy not to be so you know, I don't know if you all had any more information on the tradwives. I hadn't heard of it before. We talked about it at that last time we were together. Do you all have thoughts on that? I have lots of thoughts. Okay, which?
Speaker 4:is why it was probably me, I don't remember.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's hear it.
Speaker 4:So, you know, I'm somebody who grew up in a really conservative Christian, very specific type of Christian faith environment, home and church, and it was, you know. So tradwives for me is kind of a throwback to, you know, a few decades ago, when that was a little bit more than norm. And so to see these young women young women like in their, you know, early 20s promoting this idea on social media that this is, you know, the best option for young women and that young women are really intended to be home with their families, again, I'm with you, jan. Make any choice you want. That is what I'm here for. Make any choice you want, but let's not for one second get your choice confused with the fact that you are a part of a larger system that may be influencing your choices, and that's what we're seeing.
Speaker 4:Right is some of that backlash and some of these larger systems that are really reinforcing this idea that women have a very, very small, narrow box, and that's where it should be. And I think social media has played a really interesting role in that. And so it's that it's that good girl narrative, right, it's the good girl dogma. She looks a certain way, she does a certain thing, she focuses on. You know certain priorities in her life and if you don't fit in with that, it can be a dangerous place to be.
Speaker 2:I agree, I really agree with that. What's my obsession? No, it's mine too, because I am thinking about the fact of how hard and I know I'm the only oldest one in the room here, but how hard we had to struggle to get the vote, to have a say, to be elected, to get a job. When my husband and I graduated from college, we both had the same job at different banks, and he made $300 more a month than I did. And it was just because I remember the man saying we're going to pay you this because you're going to quit and have babies anyway. And I mean, I look back on that and I'm like, how about a lawsuit on that? You know, but that's what it took.
Speaker 2:So I think of these young women who are like oh, it's so nice to have the poofy skirt. And you know the image of coming home. He comes home, he gets the paper, he pats the dog, he has a cocktail. We had to fight so hard to get where we are. What a slippery slope. What a slippery slope. And it's disregarding all of those who burn their lingerie and tide themselves to gates at, you know, state capitals. It's really scary to me that that movement, the Trad Wife movement Again. You want to go home.
Speaker 2:You want to cook dinner? Great, do it. Yeah, don't be a movement, please. Right, it will backfire.
Speaker 4:Well, it's the insidious message of who gets to have the power, and you know women have. We've been fed a really long time that it's okay to not have power over our life and over our bodies because it's the it makes you a good girl or it makes you you know it's the right thing to do, or you know your faith system or your belief system or your family or whatever really supports this idea that this makes you a good woman. But in order to be a good woman according to these standards, you have to let go of your power and your autonomy. And that's where I think the kind of the hitches in all of this and so much of what the Barbeam movie was about. Right, it was about who has the power, who has the autonomy, and what that feels like to go from being someone who has power to someone who doesn't have power. And there's inherent risk in that, and we all three know there's actually inherent danger in that when the power is abused.
Speaker 1:Yes, so, along those lines, from each of you, how do you think the creation of the Barbie brand has helped or hurt women's efforts over the past 70 years?
Speaker 2:So I think the brand it's been good and it's been bad. You know the very first Barbie with the bathing strapless bathing suit one piece and the high heels. But then if you look at the Barbies that have come along and yes, it's a marketing ploy because we all wanted that next Barbie, but to let girls know that they can be astronauts, that Barbie can be a vet, can be a doctor, can be a teacher, can be President of the United States Not that we've realized that, that hasn't happened, but it's the concept that women can be girls and women can be something else. It got a little crazy there. In the Barbie movie they have gosh do you guys remember what it was called? But you raise her arm and her boots would get bigger.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I don't remember what that.
Speaker 2:Barbie was, but there are some that have come and gone, thank goodness. But the good news is, I think that that wasn't Skipper, no, no, it was a Barbie, Another one. If you all remember, she had a TV in her bag, which that was her value. You could watch TV and, I don't know, play with Barbie. I guess I didn't quite understand it, but anyway. So it's a good and bad image that these girls have gotten. The high school girls that Amy was talking about were really mad about it, the images that they have shoved down her throats. But I think there was some good to it at the time it came out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree, I think it has morphed over time, and I can't I'm not sure if it's a response to what's happening culturally or if Barbie took the lead in some ways culturally to go from just blonde, blue-eyed, perfect waist to all these different forms of Barbie. Yes, I'm in that conversation. Right now.
Speaker 3:I have a six-year-old niece who lives in Finland, so her mother is Finnish and her dad, my brother, is from the Bahamas, so we have a mix of races and ethnicities, and so she has the fair skin but the real tight curls, she has a lot of hair, and so we're looking for I'm going to send her a Barbie for her birthday, and I want a Barbie that represents how she looks now, and so, thankfully, I can find one. I can find a Barbie of any skin tone, of any hair texture, of any background, and that is really, really important. 25 years ago I wouldn't have been able to find that representation, and so it speaks to the influence that marketers have. Back to the idea of messaging and how we can really shape how we see each other and how we relate to each other and what we think is beautiful. And what does it like to be in love? What is it like to be successful. All that is shaped by a doll, which is pretty fascinating.
Speaker 2:Bianca, the dolls that you played with your Barbies when you were little, were they black, they were blonde.
Speaker 4:No, they were white. No they were blond.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Okay yeah, they were blonde, blue-eyed Barbies when this was back in the early 80s.
Speaker 2:Okay, at least 70s and early 80s. But do you think that sent a message that, to be perfect, you couldn't?
Speaker 3:be black? Yeah, definitely, definitely. It was a standard, I think. Well, thankfully, in my home environment and culturally, I was surrounded by messages of you're beautiful, you're capable, you're competent, and that's a whole other discussion about what it's like to grow up as a person of color in America, with its very specific racial undertones, as opposed to growing up as a person of color in another country where you may I mean everyone that did or accomplished anything of power or worth looked just like me.
Speaker 3:Anyone who, any lawyer, any attorney well, same thing any doctor, any politician, looked just like me, whereas in America that didn't look the same back in the 50s or earlier. So I had a different context, but at the end of the day, yes, it was a white Barbie doll and somewhere in my mind that was the standard. I would want my hair straight and long and I wanna be the perfect size and my boyfriend needs to look like Candice. I mean, I had a dream of moving to Chicago and living in a high rise and marrying just a white guy. That was just the standard from what I was seeing from a tiny island. So it all plays a role in how we see ourselves and what we think is possible.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it goes to that representation that you talked about, bianca. You know, I think it's one of the things that I love about the Barbie conversation is that it's so layered, right, it's a little bit like those nesting dolls, because I mean the initial Barbie. The whole concept, right, was to give girls a way to pretend to be a grownup, as opposed a grownup who did things other than mother, or be a grownup, play with a doll that is a grownup as opposed to a baby doll, and so I think that in and of itself that was powerful. But we know that I can't remember the designer of Barbie. Her first name is Ruth, right, she was in the movie, but she modeled this doll after a German like erotic toy, and so I mean she was going to look the way that she looked.
Speaker 4:That was a really interesting choice, and so I have to think about that from the toy maker perspective that it was sending one message to girls that they can absolutely imagine themselves as a grownup with a job and a purpose outside of the traditional idea of womanhood, and yet you need to look like this. And so there wasn't you know it wasn't entire freedom in this doll, and that has continued. You know that's continued and we see that with children's toys and messages to children all the time. Yes, you can have this little piece of freedom or expansion, but it's still very much tied to, very often, a specific look or a specific style.
Speaker 4:We haven't made, I think, as much movement away from that initial message as I would like. Even the dolls that show diversity. Oftentimes if you change the skin color or the hair type, they would look exactly the same, you know. So I just I feel like toy makers they haven't made enough of an effort. I'm not ready to say they've made enough of an effort and y'all. I'm also mindful of the fact this movie was made by Mattel, so this movie was made by the toy makers, and I'm like, okay, we'll have to have another conversation about this and another talk about cocktails, and you guys, you guys, let's dig into that for a minute.
Speaker 1:Let's dig into that, cause I didn't actually realize that, I didn't know the movie was made by Mattel.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean a little bit. I feel like, as women, so much of you know, to Jan's point right, People have been burning bras and, you know, banging down doors and doing amazing things to move women's rights and civil rights forward, and yet we keep, they're giving us these crumbs. You know, here's a doll where you can imagine that you can be a vet, but you still have to look like a supermodel. Right here is a movie where you can talk. All you ladies can talk about this. Okay, but we still want and y'all please hear me, I have no problem with people dressing up in pink and showing up, but it's kind of these, you know, but you still need to maybe look a certain way. So this is my, this is my own issue where I feel like we've made so much progress and yet I feel like we still accept crumbs, and maybe that's because all we can get.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you said it right that here's a movie where you can all talk about this, but then tomorrow we're going right back to the way that it is. Yeah, I mean, look around you at what's happened since October around the world and how women have been treated in other countries, and it's evident that nothing really changed just because this movie was made.
Speaker 4:I am all for. Y'all know I love a pair of heels. Can I please wear a heel? Yeah, you know. Please wear your strapless swimsuit, wear whatever you want, look as fantastic as you want, or show up in, you know, your Ratty Birkenstocks and T-shirt. I am here for all of it. But of course, right, we struggle when women have to be objectified or seen through the male gaze, and that is the very narrow idea of what makes a good, a good girl, a good woman, right when she looks a very specific way. So just want to go on record with that. Wear the heels, wear the pink, be as sexy and beautiful as you want. I'm totally here for it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I want to pick up on that point you mentioned about objectification, because I think that is such an important part of what makes the patriarchy work. That point of objectification is critical. We see that at New Friends, your Life, in the anti-sex trafficking work, where buyers will say I choose women or girls who don't look like my wife or daughters or you know. They have gone through a life where they no longer see her as a human being. They objectify her down to an object, a product, a piece of property, something that they can use and discard. So objectification is an important step in this process of keeping women in a box or not able to be our full self. So that's a piece of it. That's what makes the system work.
Speaker 1:And that's something that, culturally, young people are conditioned over time to learn how to objectify women and Barbie is only one way of doing that.
Speaker 2:I want us to have a conversation sometime about how women and I say allow ourselves I don't mean that, but the way that sounds but how we participate in the objectification. There's a TikTok that this rapper guy has all these women around him and he's calling them hoes and he's I've got my hoes and I've got my, and they're backed up to the camera dancing and I'm just like please, don't do that, please. And I don't know if they're forced. It was through fraud or coercion that they're doing that. But the piece of objectification is really big. Hey, you guys all like this.
Speaker 2:I had a call one time about and all you know, I raise money in my sleep, right? I'm always thinking about it, as you all do. And so some guy calls me and he says I've got a gift for you. And I said okay. And he said I've got some money that I work out at one of the gentlemen's club which, of course, is a huge oxymoron to me, a gentlemen's club and he said we find the women when they are late or they don't get naked fast enough, or I don't know what the fines are for. But yeah, yeah, he said we'd like to donate that to Genesis and I was like boy, I don't know that I've ever turned down money except I said I'm not sure you know who we are.
Speaker 2:And he said, yeah, you're for women and domestic violence, right, or anti-domestic violence. And I said, but that's not all. It's like we stand against the objectification of women, no matter where or when. And he's like, well, this isn't a trashy bar and I thought I'm not sure there's a difference there. But he was offended that I didn't take his money but to objectify her and then re-objectify her by fining her. Just I still have dreams about that guy.
Speaker 1:I don't even have a response for that. And it's just like what's wrong with you.
Speaker 2:I know what is wrong with you, Maria. I ask myself that so many times every day.
Speaker 5:You always say there's a lot, what is?
Speaker 2:wrong with them? Yeah, exactly, but anyway, that whole objectification of women can be a whole another podcast with you guys.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about Ken, because Ken said in the film he only existed when Barbie would acknowledge him. So after he discovered patriarchy in the real world, he found his own identity. So let's talk about that. What happens when someone is unable to find their own identity in a relationship, or perhaps their partner will not let them have their own identity?
Speaker 2:I hear the opposite. He said I had no identity, except I exist because of Barbie. I hear just the opposite every single day, providing services to women and children who are survivors of domestic violence. It was I had no identity. We're. I think we're going to do a one of our lecture series called Identity Theft, and actually one of you two maybe the speaker. We haven't gotten that far. But how? I can't exist, that I am an appendage of my husband or I am. I only have identity when I am with him or what he. You know the identity he allows me to have, cause I'm not the same person I was when I met him. Right, there was that systematic rejection of who I was, or my thoughts, or my hopes or my dreams.
Speaker 1:No, so you were shaped in the image that he wanted you to be shaped in.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. So I hear what Ken was saying, that I don't exist, but I'm like boohoo. You know I didn't have any sympathy for Ken.
Speaker 1:He had a pretty good gig, right, he really did, and all Ken's really do, don't they?
Speaker 3:What do y'all think?
Speaker 3:I was thinking of Masa's hierarchy of needs, that pyramid that shows that we all need food safety, shelter, and it kind of builds to include human relations relationships.
Speaker 3:But what happens a lot of times when we see teen girls who may have not been trafficked yet, if they're showing those vulnerabilities or any cracks in their foundation, if they're not feeling loved, if they're feeling being bullied at school, if they're living with mom and the new boyfriend and they don't feel like they fit in, they're a prime target of someone who's gonna show up and say I can fix this for you, or you're so beautiful and we're doing a photo shoot in Houston and we're looking for girls just like you.
Speaker 3:So it really speaks to the importance of having an identity, because the bad guys whether he is an abuser in an intimate partner relationship or someone who's going to assault her at a party or someone who wants to sell her for sex he's looking for anything that says I have something that needs to be filled, or I have a need that needs to be addressed emotionally, and he's going to try and fill that need. And so we even work with teen girls to help fortify them by building their own identity so that they aren't as easily manipulated by someone who's coming in with the worst of intentions. So that's critical to have that a woman is shaped and just resting in who she is and that she has the freedom and space to do that.
Speaker 2:But, bianca, it's interesting that when Ken didn't have an identity, nobody was selling him for sex, nobody was physically abusing him or verbally abusing him. So there's something about the nature of man for which I have no answers at all.
Speaker 4:Well, yes, yeah, exactly, there's that yeah I hope we can talk a little bit about that, jan that when women had the power in Barbie land, they didn't abuse anybody. Yes, mm-hmm, yes, ken was not afraid. The Ken's were not afraid. Right, they may have had a limited life but, to your point, Maria, they had a pretty sweet life. They all seem to be having great fun. Maybe they only existed in the Barbies gaze, and that absolutely is not okay, but no one was trying to hurt them, nobody was trying to control them, nobody was trying to make them small or take away their identity or exploit their vulnerability. So that's, I think, an important conversation for us to have.
Speaker 4:And, yeah, that is we might need to get some other professionals on here to have that with us.
Speaker 4:Because I think we all might go down the same. Yeah, I think we're on the same path. We're on the same path. Yeah, but you know what? It just makes me think of boundaries and that's what we do so much prevention work here at Darcy. And prevention, when you're talking about sexual violence, is not just risk reduction, right, it is getting to the heart of what helps people be more whole and to better understand where their boundaries are. Again, not to put the onus on them to keep themselves from being sexually assaulted.
Speaker 4:This is for everybody, right, because whether we like it or not, we usually exist in relationships and learning our own identity really important. But those identities are shaped in relationships, hopefully healthy relationships, and so that's such a huge piece of what we do is help people identify what is a healthy relationship so you can figure out who you are, so you do know what works for you and what doesn't work for you, and what you like and what you don't like. Right, because you have this awesome best friend and you're like well, she loves this and I love this. So it doesn't happen in a vacuum, but helping especially young folks start to understand those skills where they can engage in relationship in ways that are healthy and boundaries, so they can share power and they can say no, and they can make their own choices in life without being afraid. That's how we're gonna make a difference in our world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what we're really looking for is equity. We're not looking to turn patriarchy upside down and make it matriarchy. We're looking for equitable opportunities for all people. And to your point, Amy, we can exist better if we all have access to the same opportunities, if none of us are afraid and we can live our own identity. Totally agree.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's so interesting, amy. There was a study. I'm a huge football fan and I have a fantasy football team. I'm on a team with nine other women, so we're a 10-team league, all women and so there was a study that went out about fantasy football that said, for male-dominated or male-only leagues, only the winning team wins the prize. So at the end of the season, if you were in first place, you win the pot, right. But with women-led leagues like ours, we give four places of winnings to each other. It's like just this innate wanting to spread power, to share winnings, to celebrate each other. I think that's an example of what Amy's talking about. That's missing when you said that in the world where the women had the power, they weren't doing, they weren't abusing, they weren't abusing that power. And it even shows up in fantasy football. There's actually a study on that about how we just show up differently as men and women when it comes to power and shared winnings and celebrations. So that's just interesting to know.
Speaker 1:It really is. That really is because we not only show up differently, we show up for each other, so we show up for other women.
Speaker 2:I think it was Oprah that said, for every woman who makes it out, there was another one who showed her the way, kind of thing. So I think about that a lot. I know, bianca, that's what you're doing, and Amy, I know that's what you're doing, and certainly we do that at Genesis as an organization. Show other women the way and it's given them the leg up that maybe they never have had, and hopefully they'll give someone else that leg up.
Speaker 1:And speaking of showing women the way, gloria in the film played by America Ferrera, gives a very moving speech to the Barbies regarding the conflict of expectations placed on women in the real world. You can find that speech on YouTube, but let's summarize the high points of the speech and talk about the impacts of these expectations on women.
Speaker 2:I think it was the dichotomy of being a woman. She kind of launched on this diatribe of you have to have money but you can't ask for money, because that's crass. Well, I don't think that's in Kenland or the Mojo-Dojo-Casa house anywhere that turned into a frat house really fast. But again, with women, you have to have money but you can't ask for it. You have to answer four men's bad behavior, which is insane, but if you point that out, you're accused of being a complainer all the time. So yeah, it goes into that whole thing of the dichotomy of who women have to be. Does that make sense? You're supposed to be pretty for men, but you don't want to be so pretty that other women hate you? Yes, exactly, exactly, because you still are supposed to be part of the sisterhood somehow.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like being set up to fail. What kind of is I mean? No matter what, even as a victim of sexual assault or rape, you're set up to fail. If you report it, you're lying. They don't believe you. What were you doing there? What were you wearing? It's all the same thing, it's just packaged in a different way.
Speaker 2:I read an article the other day called Prove it. It was just Prove it. I don't know if either of you all have seen that article, but it talked about how, in the crimes of what we represent in our worlds it is, the burden of proof lies on the survivor as opposed to the perpetrator. And if you can't prove that he had Bianca, as you were saying earlier if you can't prove that he had intention of fraud or coercion, then there's no case there, basically. And the beat goes on yeah you guys.
Speaker 4:I testified in a case not long ago that I think was a perfect example of this, because all the elements were there that should have resulted in a guilty verdict against this man. There was actual DNA evidence on her body and the nature of the relationship. He was a health care provider and she was in an ambulance and she was almost dying and of course his defense was that it was consensual. Of course, oh my gosh. And there was DNA evidence of his saliva on intimate parts of her body. Under what circumstance does that indicate to anyone that there was consent involved and he was not found guilty? Amy, you've got to be kidding, I'm not kidding, I am not kidding. I was stunned. I was stunned and you know why. You know why Because she was unlikable.
Speaker 2:Oh, Because she did not fit within the box.
Speaker 4:She did not fit the good girl box, wow, and she wasn't likable and she made some decisions that people couldn't square that with somebody who was a real victim or a true victim. It was stunning. So this still is happening in these egregious ways.
Speaker 1:So she was dying in an ambulance and he raped her.
Speaker 4:Yes, he assaulted he sexually? Assaulted her.
Speaker 2:I'm stunned. Yeah, I know what's wrong with people.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I know we asked that every day. What's wrong with you? What is?
Speaker 2:wrong with people? Can we talk about my favorite person?
Speaker 1:I hope we have the same favorite person. I think we do, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think we talk about weird Barbie and I think maybe I was. It was trauma triggered because my little sister got a hold of I think that was before Barbie land. I think my doll was Jill but it looked just like weird Barbie. She cut her hair and you know mark on her face and I'm sure there's some issues with it.
Speaker 1:I didn't have a Barbie, but I had something like weird Barbie. Yes, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly. But yeah, she had been through the ringer. But I'm telling you she was smart. She is the one who, you know, saw through the power and control and used this to empower other Barbies. In fact, you know, at the end of the whole thing she said you know, we have to make the unspeakable speakable. And that's what you girls do every single day. You make the unspeakable speakable and by giving voice to the cognitive dissonance of living under patriarchy, you rob it of its power. That's not so weird.
Speaker 1:No, it is not. It's weird, very wise Weird.
Speaker 2:Barbie Weird twice. Yes, exactly, but you made the point earlier. We're not trying to win, we just want to be. Does that make sense? It does to me, but, yeah, I mean that's. I want that on my tombstone. Okay, guys, you know, not trying to win to try to beat, no, the other part, the other one. You tried to make them speakable, speakable. Yeah, that's a good day at the office as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, yes, for sure.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Yeah, I love that weird Barbie. You know, she existed outside of kind of all of it, right, because she didn't fit within the box, she got booted out, and when you get booted out, when you're not having to play the game in the same way, maybe you can see things a little bit more clearly. And so, yeah, she was. I think she was an important character in the movie, but there was a cost, right, there was a cost to her. She was alone, right. Nobody wanted to talk to her.
Speaker 4:The other Barbies didn't like her, they were scared of her. I mean, you know, they said unkind things about her. I mean, ultimately, I think they apologized at the end of the movie. But you know, okay, she had to live outside of relationships because she didn't fit within the norm or the model, and so I think that's true for anybody who's trying to make the unspeakable speakable, you know, and the folks who are doing this work and survivors who are surviving after they've experienced what all of our, all the women and girls that we serve, have experienced. Yeah, you know, oftentimes that means separation and isolation and a sense of feeling different. There's a cost.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I heard a pastor say you don't know that you're committed until it's inconvenient, like until there is a cost. You know that you're committed to a cause or a mantra or a way of life until you have to make a choice that is not popular and until it becomes inconvenient for you. Jan last word.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we've said it. I really do. I just want to applaud the work that these two women do, both Genesis trained, by the way.
Speaker 2:I understand I understand, but I applaud what you all do every single day and you know, to get together and talk about these kinds of things that we've been working on for so many years. Put together, I mean, how long is this? 90 years altogether. I don't know if that makes if that mathematically is correct A lot of years. A lot of years. It's a bunch of years. And the fact that we can know that or at least hope that we're making this world a better place for women and girls.
Speaker 1:Thanks everyone for talking with me today. Thank you, Maria. Attention Spanish-speaking listeners Listen to the end of this podcast for information on how to reach a Spanish-speaking representative of Genesis. If you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship, you can get help or give help at genesisshelterorg or by calling or texting our 24-7 crisis hotline team at 214-946-HELP 214-946-4357. Bilingual services at Genesis include text, phone call, clinical counseling, legal services, advocacy and more. Call or text us for more information. Donations to support women and children escaping domestic violence are always needed. Learn more at genesisshelterorg slash donate. Thanks for joining us. I'm reminding you always that ending domestic violence begins when we believe her.
Speaker 5:With your established decision tochan completa and social action. We hope you know this video from today's podcast for giving peoples a Kiwi descent. We will ask you to pay yourself a huge amount of your support. We love you for your kind. Thanks for beingECG. Dating of Dakota text messages, calls, advice, legal services and more. Call us or send us a text for more information. Women are always needed to support or help children escape domestic violence. Learn more on our website at genesisshelterorg barra inclinadacom.