What does it mean to raise boys in a world that faces an ongoing battle with toxic masculinity? How do societal pressures, gendered expectations, and the culture of sports affect our sons and shape their perception of manhood? This week I had the privilege of sitting down with my colleague and fellow boy mom, Jordyn Lawson, to share experiences and insights into raising boys in the 21st century.
Together we explore the challenges of toxic masculinity, delving into its manifestations in sports and personal relationships, the pressures of societal expectations, and its correlation to domestic violence. We also opened up about the realities of raising boys in a society that still clings tightly to traditional gender roles - a conversation that led us to explore the concept of toxic femininity and its far-reaching impacts. We agreed that parents have an essential role in guiding their sons, teaching them to regulate their emotions, and promoting emotional intelligence – a key element towards dismantling the harmful ideologies behind toxic masculinity.
In the end, we settled on the power of education as a primary tool for countering toxic masculinity. We underlined the importance of safe spaces for boys and the need to challenge stereotypes that limit their understanding of what it means to be a man. By sharing our personal experiences and strategies, we found a fresh perspective on raising confident, empathetic, and well-rounded boys. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to raise their sons in a society that is slowly but surely redefining masculinity.
What does it mean to raise boys in a world that faces an ongoing battle with toxic masculinity? How do societal pressures, gendered expectations, and the culture of sports affect our sons and shape their perception of manhood? This week I had the privilege of sitting down with my colleague and fellow boy mom, Jordyn Lawson, to share experiences and insights into raising boys in the 21st century.
Together we explore the challenges of toxic masculinity, delving into its manifestations in sports and personal relationships, the pressures of societal expectations, and its correlation to domestic violence. We also opened up about the realities of raising boys in a society that still clings tightly to traditional gender roles - a conversation that led us to explore the concept of toxic femininity and its far-reaching impacts. We agreed that parents have an essential role in guiding their sons, teaching them to regulate their emotions, and promoting emotional intelligence – a key element towards dismantling the harmful ideologies behind toxic masculinity.
In the end, we settled on the power of education as a primary tool for countering toxic masculinity. We underlined the importance of safe spaces for boys and the need to challenge stereotypes that limit their understanding of what it means to be a man. By sharing our personal experiences and strategies, we found a fresh perspective on raising confident, empathetic, and well-rounded boys. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to raise their sons in a society that is slowly but surely redefining masculinity.
Moms of boys have unique challenges, trying to navigate traditional male roles and role models, as well as interesting opportunities to mold their sons into a generation of men who reject those roles and embrace equity. Two moms of boys, jordan Lawson and me, discuss what it's like to be a boy mom. I'm Maria McMullen and this is Genesis, the podcast Jordan. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. Okay, so I was going to read our bios as introduction for this episode. But really, outside of all of your professional accolades, we're really just a couple of boy moms right, yes, we are yes we are.
Speaker 1:So when you and I talked about wanting to talk about toxic masculinity, you suggested we talk from our own experience, and I think that is so wise. So here we are for today's segment, all about moms of boys. Are you ready? We're just coming off a weekend. How do you feel about boys as of Monday? You?
Speaker 3:know it was a really active weekend with lots of boy things, so I'm a little tired yeah.
Speaker 1:I SMI, so by way of background for our listeners, I have teenagers and I have a four-year-old and a seven-year-old, so you have kind of little skills.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm just getting started. You've been in the game for a minute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's been a hot mess. So we compare stories a lot, you and I, and one of the remarkable things to me is how much has really changed since my teens were in the age groups of your little ones. I mean now here in 2023, there's even more technology. So, point of reference, like, my first child was born, I think, the year the iPhone was introduced. So we are back back back, you know, in the very early part of the 21st century, if you will, and there wasn't as much technology as what we have today. So I think when I had babies, I wasn't very preoccupied with a phone or any type of tech. I was very focused on, you know, just kind of being the mom or the new mom.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think it's such an important point, right, we could spend and I think we have spent other podcasts talking about the influence of technology. Yes, but I think you're right, because there's just so much more or so many more images right of what it means to be a good mom, or what you're supposed to do here, or what other boys are doing, or there's just so many more comparison things to say like how's my kid supposed to look? How's he supposed to act? When is he supposed to be doing these sort of things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and trying to live that, if you will, instagram lifestyle of you know what, what your life is supposed to look like as a new mom, as a mom of a boy, as a soccer mom or a baseball mom, whatever football mom, whatever sport your boys are into. And so you're not.
Speaker 3:Your kids are not at middle school yet right, no, we are just dipping our toe in elementary.
Speaker 1:So we are, my boys are in high school and we're just coming off middle school. And I bring up middle school for a reason because that's when I really started to notice the changes, and by the changes I mean boys, not all boys we should preface. We should preface a few things, let's back up a few steps. So when I say boys, I'm referring to my boys or boys. That I know. But clearly everyone's children are different, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I think the whole purpose of this conversation today is to sort of get rid of the box.
Speaker 1:So yes, yes, what a great thing to point out, because we are trying not to put labels on things and not to put people in a man box, if you will.
Speaker 1:At least that's what Dr Judith Herman, that's what she refers to as these, you know, machismo attitudes of typical masculine roles that boys have been expected to assume over the centuries.
Speaker 1:We're not trying to do that Right, but I did notice in middle school in my own children and boys, that I know there's typically that is typically the years when they start to demonstrate this machismo. These, you know, tough the tough guy starts to emerge and then it feels like if you're not really paying attention to it, it becomes a runaway train. So I just want to point out, if you look up synonyms for machismo, they include the terms masculinity or manliness, bravery and virility, and these are all things infused in our culture of what it really means to be a man, and some of that is positive, because we need brave people in the world, absolutely but some of it can be toxic. So it can be, it can be negative, but then it can swing all the way to being toxic, and that's kind of why we wanted to talk about our experiences with boys, raising boys and trying to influence them, you know, in a positive way so they do not feel they need to live in the man box.
Speaker 3:Right, you said it earlier. Right to get rid of the labels. Right, exactly, to create more space for what it means to be a man, if you will right.
Speaker 1:Right, because you know, you and I know what it means to be a man right.
Speaker 3:That's the purpose of coming as a man, not a man.
Speaker 1:Right. So the phrase toxic masculinity kind of takes those traits a few steps further, where they are demonstrated in negative ways like domination, homophobia and aggression, and to the extent that societal pressures push boys into those behaviors and really perpetuate a toxic male dominated culture. And as a mom and a human, I do not like that. No, no.
Speaker 3:I mean, we don't want our sons to be perpetrating violence against anybody else, but we for sure want our sons to be in a safe space where they are also welcomed and not expected not receiving of violence or aggression and again being boxed into being, you know, only like this or only say this or only dress this way. So, yeah, I think it's important to say this is the thing that we're trying to talk about is how do we raise boys to not be boxed into this toxic masculinity?
Speaker 1:Exactly Because there's a difference between being confident and dominating Absolutely. You know, and I think we want to raise confident young men and we can talk about that Like what is the best way to kind of show them what the balance is. One of my favorite ways is, you know, always keep your hands to yourself. I'm sure you still say that a lot with your voice.
Speaker 3:Oh, my gosh, you can't hear I-rolls through the podcast. But yes, right, yes, the activity level of my boys demands kind of almost constant like okay, hands are not for, hitting hands are not for, pushing hands are not for, and so that kind of explanation of how do we deal with conflict or how do we express ourselves or how do we play and where's the line in which it becomes aggression.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question and I like the way that you put that hands are not for hitting. I think I've kind of progressed to the point where I'm like don't touch your brother. That's kind of where we are I do that too.
Speaker 3:No worries, hands are not hitting. Is the play therapist in me Right At some point during the day? That's just out the window and it's like just sit here and don't touch anything, do not touch anyone.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about the origins of the term toxic masculinity. So, according to an article that I read in the Atlantic titled the Problem with a Fight Against Toxic Masculinity, by Michael Salter, and this was written in 2019. So there were a lot of things happening in 2019 that I think as a society, at least in the United States, it was causing us to really take a look at the issues around patriarchy and toxic masculinity. But the author suggests that and this is a quote the popular term points toward very real problems of male violence and sexism, but it risks misrepresenting what actually causes them. So he goes on to discuss the origins of the term toxic masculinity, and this is another quote from the article.
Speaker 1:Despite the term's recent popularity among feminists, toxic masculinity did not originate with the women's movement. It was coined in the mythopoetic men's movement of the 1980s and 90s, motivated in part as a reaction to second wave feminism and the 80s you know, 80s, 90s, mid-80s was when the women's movement and the anti-domestic violence movement was really coming up. Yes, exactly. So there's a huge push here and women rightfully begin calling out men for the for for beating them and for injuring them and for murdering women and all of the things that we've talked about on this podcast. So this is where this men's movement is actually intersecting.
Speaker 1:To go on with the quote, through male only workshops, wilderness retreats and drumming circles, this movement promoted a masculine spirituality to rescue what it referred to as the deep masculine, a protective, warrior masculinity, from toxic masculinity. Men's aggression and frustration was, according to the movement, the result of a society that feminized boys by denying them the necessary rights and rituals to realize their true selves as men. So I did fact check this article myself and through many other sources, including AI, sorry, I'll point to that movement and to the work of Professor Shepard Bliss, who really introduced toxic masculinity into the lexicon. So I think there's a lot here, a lot to digest, and how we interpret toxic masculinity today may look a little different from the way that it was originally intended, because that often happens when something is studied and reveals itself over time Our interpretations may look different from the true, from the original intentions.
Speaker 3:Right, well, and then I would hope that, through time, what we're doing is we're learning more and growing and balancing in, like, what's the purpose of this term? Right, because the purpose of this term is not to be anti men. It's actually to be really pro men, in that it's calling out the toxicity, the things that are hurtful to men, and trying to allow for a conversation that gives space for men to be who they are, to like the things that they like, including sports, including drumming circles and wilderness retreats.
Speaker 1:Right, I really think I need to explore that. I apologize to the audience because I just didn't have time to look into the drumming circles and how those make you a better man.
Speaker 3:But I think the idea of what we're talking about is there's not anything inherently wrong with those things? No, of course not. Toxic masculinity is calling out the belief system that, in order to be male, you must dominate, you must be powerful, you must only be brave and never afraid, you must only be strong and never vulnerable. Right, and so I think that, like you're saying, the growth of this term or the growth of this conversation is meant to be really positive for men in our society.
Speaker 1:Exactly so if we can acknowledge all of us, men and women alike that toxic masculine behaviors exist within our culture, and then we have a choice to make. Do we want to accept them? Is that who we want to be? Is that what behaviors we want to exhibit or demonstrate to our children, and are those the behaviors we want to see in our children?
Speaker 3:They're not yeah, and I like that you use that word accept, because I think I'm sitting here kind of thinking the same thing. Right, that all the phrase toxic masculinity is asking people to accept is that there is a level in which some of these ideas are harmful and they absolutely contribute to high rates of crime, high rates of domestic violence, high rates of sexual assault, high rates of unhappiness and suicidality in males, right, these kind of things that it's asking us to accept. That to be strict in what it means to be male is harmful to society and it's harmful to women, especially in the conversations that we have on this podcast, but that it's harmful to men also.
Speaker 1:So I wonder I'm going to think out loud, which is something I would normally do on a podcast. But there are traditional roles identified for women, and Is there toxic femininity? I don't know, Is that a thing?
Speaker 3:If we were going to take the phrase toxic masculinity and again what it means to be boxed in and only allowed to be this certain way, and anything outside of this way is looked down upon as being weak or bad then yeah, I think there is such thing as toxic femininity, and I think that would be.
Speaker 3:You know, what pops into my head in this moment is like the idea, you know, women went into the workforce and we became empowered to reach our career aspirations and use our gifts to do certain things, and so then there sort of became this idea that to be a stay-at-home mom meant that you weren't as educated or you didn't have as many talents, and so, as you're saying this, that kind of comes up in my head as an example of it would be toxic to believe that to be feminine would be a stay-at-home mom, only right. Or somebody who only dresses this way or only cares for their kids by baking muffins this way, or, you know, leaning into again those stereotypes or those really strict ideas of what it means to be a woman or a man.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we've looked it up, you know, of course, on a internet search, which would be the most reliable way that we can find the definition of this. It means a lot of different things in different on some of these different websites, so I wouldn't say that all of these or any of these are correct or how anyone might think of them. But one of these websites says toxic femininity refers to the adherence to the gender binary in order to receive conditional value. In patriarchal societies, it's a concept that restricts women to being cooperative, passive, sexually submissive, gentle and deriving their value from physical beauty, while being pleasing to men.
Speaker 3:Hmm, yeah, so I think what we're talking about that does sound toxic, that does sound very toxic, yeah, and we have lots of conversations about how that's harmful for young girls, right? Exactly, I'm thinking about the Barbie movie that just came out and the positive conversations that have come from a lot of the themes and ideas of that movie, right, about what it means to be feminine and pretty, or what your body should look like, or how you should act, or what your personality should be right? So I think, whether we're talking about toxic femininity or toxic masculinity, we're talking about the toxicness lays in the stereotypes, lays in the strictness, the very narrow space in which you have to conform to in order to be a good woman or a good man, right?
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I think here in the United States the predominant roles for men and women are these toxic roles. If you will, if you accept these two definitions that Jordan and I have provided for toxic masculinity and femininity, then those are the predominant roles that we see in the United States. Now I have to ask you, jordan, as our chief residential officer and a licensed professional counselor at Genesis Women's Shelter and Support, how has all of this impacted the field of domestic violence?
Speaker 3:So what the field of domestic violence has recognized and I think we're talking about pre-facing things or things that should be understood one of the things that has to be understood is in the issue of domestic violence, a vast majority of crimes of domestic violence are perpetrated by men, and, whether that be simple assaults or that be murder, it would be men who are perpetrating these violent crimes, right and so, because of that, what the field has really looked at is the issue of dominance, the issue of entitlement and the issue of using strength, whether it be physically or in manipulating strength, in order to control somebody. So the field of domestic violence has sort of tried to call out the misuse of this strength, or the misuse of, or the idea of dominating somebody, as being unhealthy, especially in a relationship where there's two people involved.
Speaker 1:And at Genesis we serve anyone who identifies as a woman we do. We are looking at this from the perspective of the clients that are walking through our door who are women.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we've chosen to remain an agency that provides services to those that identify as female, again because the statistics show that the vast majority of domestic violence incidences are perpetrated by men against women, and so the disproportionate effect of this issue on women is still true in our society Absolutely, and so let's take this back to real life for a minute.
Speaker 1:So we're going back to talking about being moms of boys and how all of this impacts our parenting and the behaviors of our children and the people that they choose to follow and be friends with the choices that they make about playing games or getting involved in different groups or what they like to read, what they watch on social media, because you know they're watching stuff on social media even if they're not in middle school, right? Yes, so let's talk about sports. We started off talking about sports a little bit. I mean, I'm a sports mom for sure. I know you are too and these are physical and aggressive in nature and the focus is typically to dominate To dominate the game, to dominate the field, dominate the other team or the individual player, your position guards, and that in itself is not toxic. It's not necessarily right, not necessarily, and it's not even completely or only masculine to dominate.
Speaker 3:Of course right. Have you watched the US women's soccer team? They are very physical and dominating on that field.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean, you know that is a great example in the sports world. And then when you look out beyond sports, there are lots of places where anybody could dominate a field, and you could give countless examples of that. And you could look at nature as well. You know, I specifically think about you know when an eagle is guarding the eggs in its nest, because I believe it's the mother bird that is doing the guarding. Is that correct? I really hope so.
Speaker 3:Well, I like the idea. You know, I actually have a necklace that says mama bear on it, with my two boys kind of on it. It was given to me, so I'm going with the same idea, right, that protective instinct can be very much a part of being a woman too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that kind of dominating the situation like being the one in charge.
Speaker 1:So it's not just masculine but it can venture into the territory of being very toxic. And we've seen this translate from, let's say, for example, the football field in the NFL into real life in very dangerous ways, in very deadly ways. We've done podcasts in the past talking about the incident rate of domestic violence and violence against women by players in the NFL, and those cases have been very public. So what's on the field can be taken off the field and become very dangerous.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:You know, from a DV perspective, what it brings up for me is kind of this issue of entitlement, that we know that the root of domestic violence is a belief system that I have the right to get what I want when I want it, and if you don't give it to me, I am forced to, I have to do whatever it takes to make you give it.
Speaker 3:And so I'm thinking about kind of a football scenario where I am going to win this game and I'm going to do whatever I've got to do on the field to win this game.
Speaker 3:So there is sort of this lack of consideration of the physical space of others or the physical being of others, or there's this very I focused, or you know, maybe I being the team, my team here, but of us getting what we want and doing whatever it takes to get what we want, right, right. And so if you're kind of conditioned and, in a patterned way, used to being in this mindset, frankly I don't really see how it wouldn't come off of the field, right Right, how it wouldn't come into your personal relationships when you have somebody smaller than you especially, or, you know, making less money than you or less influential than you or who's dependent on you, depended upon you, right, and they're saying no, they're saying they don't want to give you this thing that you want, or they don't want to do the thing that you want to do. It's in that space that this toxic idea can come up, right, that I'm supposed to dominate in order to get my way.
Speaker 1:And again, that is often played out by a man trying to dominate a woman, and it's usually in an intimate partner relationship. And so the point being, if we go all the way back to talking about our boys, young men, children, frankly playing sports, Boys seem very inclined to play sports, many of them not all, but many, and they feel they seem, my impression is drawn to games that are played competitively, and I think that's part of their nature. It might be part of human nature, but what do we do as moms to influence that in positive ways so they don't feel like? Being this star athlete includes being a dominant, aggressive, in other words toxic, masculine person off the field.
Speaker 3:You know, the first thing that I think of when you ask that question, the word that comes up is identity. Right that I think that so much of sports culture becomes how a child may identify themselves, that you know my child may identify themselves as a baseball player Not necessarily a bad thing, as we've been talking about. These are sort of not inherently bad. But when the idea of winning gets connected to my identity, right and you and I are, we're sports moms who like to go and watch our kids perform. Well Do we.
Speaker 3:No, we do. Well, we're there. We're there a lot, right? We're cheering from the stands, right? So, again, winning isn't bad. But the idea that I have to win because in order to be good, for my identity to be good, for me to be a good person, for people to like me, for me, right, when winning is connected to my identity and being a baseball player who wins is my identity I think that becomes a problematic place, right?
Speaker 1:So let's stop there for a second. How could we identify if that's happening with a kid?
Speaker 3:I think looking at again how do they talk about themselves. If my child only talks about themselves in terms of being a baseball player, I'm not going to freak out, but I am going to listen to. How do they react when they lose the baseball game? Sure, if they lose the baseball game and they're disappointed and they're sad, but then they can get back to practice the next time and they can get in and we're going to try better the next time, I would be okay there.
Speaker 3:If they're devastated by a loss and that devastation sort of goes on and on and it comes with sort of expressions of low self-esteem right, I'm bad, I sucked, I lost the game for us.
Speaker 3:I would really be concerned in that space that their identity is a little too closely connected to performance and dominating, as we've been talking about in connection to the idea of toxicity.
Speaker 3:Right, I would really want to have a direct conversation with my child about that and say I can't help but hear you say that you're bad because you lost the game and I want us to talk about that because the truth is you're disappointed about how you lost, but who you are as a person is somebody who tried really hard, right?
Speaker 3:I recently read an article that sort of suggested not, when your child performs well in math, right, that you don't say, oh my gosh, you're so smart, but you really reflect and really emphasize how hard they worked on that assignment. You tried really hard, you worked really hard on that, so you're identifying the process. The idea was that if you do that, they're likely to continue putting effort into working Right. But in the space of this conversation, what I'm connecting with them, I think, is if you can really help them have positive identity in the work that it takes to be a baseball player, rather than winning or losing, then the participation in sports can be a very positive thing, regardless of whether or not their team won the championship every year or not.
Speaker 1:Those are all great points and things to consider. I love the idea of talking about the process and getting there, because that's part of the satisfaction of doing something. It's like you know what was the journey. It's not just about the win, right.
Speaker 3:You know, maria, in also connecting the idea of toxic masculinity with how it maybe comes out in sports or is added to by sports right, sports culture can be space for where toxic masculinity is taught. I think the other thing that comes up for me is the idea of balance, right, that having the only thing in my kiddos life being baseball not necessarily a bad thing, but I think most experts are really talking about and saying that having other ways that they feel good about themselves or other spaces that they feel like they have gifts and talents, can be really that sweet spot for healthiness. Still have the baseball, still have the soccer, still have the thing that they love, but encouraging the sort of balancing of self right. And so I think that becomes the idea of I get to have more than one part of me, I get to have a broader view of who I am as a person. And again, going back to the purpose of the podcast, toxic masculinity is this very narrowing idea of this is how I'm supposed to be, this is what I'm supposed to like, this is what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 3:Again, it's the man box, exactly the man box. If I do something, if my kiddo wants to be involved in something that's stereotypically male, like sports. Again, like we've said, not a bad thing, but it would be really good for them to have other spaces to express themselves or to enjoy things or to like, whether that be. You know, they're really good at art and they like coloring also, or they're really good at being a leader and a friend, so they're on the, they're on the student council or they're doing volunteerism activities and groups like that Right. So there's other spaces of their identity that's being nurtured also. Again, it's a broadening of that box. It's allowing for an identity that is multifaceted, has many different things and space for all the different things that this, that, that my son might like and my son might identify with.
Speaker 1:I think you just identified what healthy masculinity means, and it is about balance and it is about not feeling ashamed to have a side of you that doesn't fit in the man box.
Speaker 3:Not feeling like. You can only like these things. Exactly and also not being shamed by other boys or men for not living in the man box Right, and I think that again, I just can't help but emphasize, like this is the the positivity or the healthiness of this conversation right. The conversation against toxic masculinity is allowing for more freedom, more space, more things, and that being a really positive thing for men, for boys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you and I talk about this, what you're saying is so true because and we talked about this before it everybody wins if we don't each live in these toxic roles, right, everybody wins because we can explore what it means to have healthy, equitable relationships as women and men side by side. Let's back up a little bit and talk about the development of the brain. So let's specifically talk about the development of the boy brain and what occurs as they enter puberty and become an adolescent and the changes that happen to their attitudes. And I know you're not there yet at home with your boys, but boy I am. And what is this? What's going on in there? I read a book with that title many years ago and I still don't think I know the answer. But what is going on in there at puberty for boys that changes them so completely? They become, you know, feeling like they need to identify as a tough guy, right?
Speaker 3:Well, I think it's important to just sort of note that the research actually doesn't delineate this time period of boys versus girls.
Speaker 3:It really talks about the maturing of the brain and what's going on the brain, regardless of gender. So it's that sort of societal pressure that comes in, but there is influence from a male brain, because we do know that the male brain does emphasize movement, it does emphasize activity, it does sort of lean towards impulsivity and reactivity, a little bit more than the female brain. Like the female brain can very much, it can move a little bit slower from time, it fires neurons a little bit slower, not meaning, of course, that it thinks slower, but just it reacts differently. It's more thoughtful, right. And so then you get into I mean, that's what you mean, greg, yeah, because you get into boys at my kids four and seven, or you get to boys in adolescence, like you're talking about. And I think when I say that the brain's a little bit more reactive, all moms would be like, well, yep, I see that Right, or impulsive, right, definitely. And this sort of impulsivity and reactivity that's connected to movement, to body expression, right, this?
Speaker 1:is yeah. I could check every one of these boxes, thinking about the behaviors of my own children, Right.
Speaker 3:And so, again, I think what's so important about this conversation is in understanding that we know that that is not bad, but that it does sort of need to be guided in a really healthy way so that boys learn how to express themselves, they learn sort of the limits of reactivity, they sort of learn how to have control over that impulsivity, how to have considerations of others in that impulsivity.
Speaker 1:Ok, so you are definitely a professional in this field, right? Give us one example that we can all kind of say, yes, that that is something I've seen or done, so people can really relate to this idea.
Speaker 3:So, to be honest with you, I think a really great example of this is anger, an expressing anger right.
Speaker 3:Oh sure, and wanting to get very direct with my boys and talking about you are allowed to be angry that anger is not a bad emotion.
Speaker 3:There's no such thing as good feelings or bad feelings, right. But there is such thing as a healthy expression of feelings and non-healthy or even abusive expressions of feelings. But that takes really direct, guided conversations of you feel disappointed by this, you feel hurt by this, you feel angry by this, and you are allowed to feel that way. But you're not allowed to scream, you're not allowed to punch the wall, you're not allowed to throw something across the room. Right, here's what you can do. So, again, I think in that parenting role, you're helping the child understand, like grow in that mindfulness, especially a boy, right, grow in that mindfulness of what I'm feeling inside and how it wants to explode out of me. But we're talking about how do I notice that and have control over it, to express it in this healthy way, versus having that impulsivity and that tendency to be more movement-focused mean that it's coming out of me in this explosive, violent way.
Speaker 1:Right, there's so many layers to that too. Because, number one, you may have to say that many times or have that same conversation many times.
Speaker 3:I think you'd have to have it over and over and over. The more you say it, the better it would be.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I say that because I've had similar conversations so many times and I still do about you know it's OK to be mad, but you cannot be mean and you cannot be violent and you kind of the consequences. You talk with my kids about the consequences of violence and how we don't get anywhere. We still don't get what we want ultimately.
Speaker 3:I also like the idea. When you're saying consequences, the word that's coming up for me is impact. Right With your consequences, I'm also thinking impact. So toxic masculinity would say dominate, regardless of how it affects others. Right To get what you want. To get what you want to be in power. The healthy conversation that you and I are trying to have with our boys is your anger is understandable, but your actions have to be considerate of those that are around you. You don't just get to explode and pound your fist on this table, because how does that affect the person sitting next to you? So I think it's trying to combat that again impulsivity and reactivity and try to help them put things like consideration in with it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and it takes a long time for boys to get there, because they remain in this kind of state of being reactive and being very physical and physically oriented for a very long time, or at least it feels like a very long time if you are their parent. Clearly they're not gonna fully mature until what 25, 30?
Speaker 3:Well, so 25 is the average. So what we know is that a girl's brain is fully developed Usually around the age of like 23,. But boys can go more to the age of like 27. Wow, 26, 27. So again, even then, a boy's brain is moving really fast all of the time, but it's actually maturing at a slower rate than a girl's brain.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I can tell you, I've witnessed this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you and I have had conversations about expectations. Right, because the brain is not fully developed. But it's so hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, be prepared to have the same conversations repeatedly, mm-hmm, and be patient, right? Yes, patience is key. That is probably the one thing that'll get you through it. Mm-hmm, I don't think my children maybe a lot of young men do not wanna talk about what it means to be masculine or how they identify their masculinity. I think if I came at my kids with these words, they would run in the opposite direction.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh. Years ago, ruth Greato she's been on this podcast we did a teen boys group together and we tried to have a group specific on toxic masculinity and talk about it, and it was just like a wall of and I don't know if we were talking above their heads or if it, but I can hear you on that one. No, it's a hard conversation to have directly.
Speaker 1:I think if I approach this with my kids, I would probably hear like I don't even know what you're talking about. Exactly Right, what? Ok, just don't hurt anybody there.
Speaker 2:How's that.
Speaker 1:But the reason you and I are doing this today is we know some of it's funny, we know some of it's really hurtful. It's all relevant to domestic violence.
Speaker 3:And what?
Speaker 1:we're hoping to do is encourage you listeners to talk about this. Think about this at home, even if you don't have boys, if you have daughters, if you have nephews, it doesn't matter. But these conversations in the formative years for young men are really important to shaping the future for all healthy relationships. I know I'm of the belief, working at Genesis that if we can work and educate and support our youngest citizens both Genesis clients and the teens we talk to in the community alike in really positive ways and educate them about healthy behaviors versus toxic behaviors and so on, perhaps we can lighten the burden for the future on the amount of violence we see against women and the in the home and the violence we see against just each other around the world.
Speaker 3:That's the point today right Break generational trauma Exactly.
Speaker 1:So at Genesis, we're working with boys under the age of 17 who have witnessed domestic violence, which is a little different than the kids you and I have at home, right, jordan? I mean, we're not talking about the same thing, we're laughing about how our kids would run away from us, or you know. But the boys we work with at Genesis in particular you because, jordan, you do have a direct work with clients these boys have witnessed domestic violence and perhaps have experienced child abuse.
Speaker 3:Well, and so the exposure to this is how you treat women, or this is how you react in?
Speaker 3:these situations right Absolutely, and I know that I've worked with teen boys who have had a father say to them you do this so you're not a man. You have to do this in order to be a man. And so this really again, strict but really direct teaching of if you wanna be a man and there's this idea of if you wanna be okay, if you wanna be accepted, you have to be this- Right, and those are kind of the clients that come into Genesis.
Speaker 1:Let's talk a little bit about the impact of that kind of abuse on the developing male brain and how it might perpetuate toxic masculinity.
Speaker 3:So what we would say here, in the kind of major concept that I would put forward here, is the idea of learned behavior, right, that you sort of act out what you have seen work for others.
Speaker 3:And so, specific to domestic violence, we know that there's not a direct correlation between a boy raised in an abusive home and an abuser, meaning if you're raised in an abusive home, you're not guaranteed to be an abuser, right, but there is a much higher rate of being an abuser if you witness domestic violence as a child, right, and of course, what we know of that is it's that learned behavior, it's that teaching through. Okay, this is how I, everybody looks for models, everybody looks for comparisons of how they're supposed to be, and, of course, a dad is gonna be a really close one for a son, right, and if this is how my dad got what he wanted to eat for dinner every night, then this is how I'm gonna get what I want to eat for dinner every night. And so we definitely see this really strict idea in the boys that we treat at Genesis, and we try to have really direct conversations about this idea and about the unhealthiness and abusiveness of behaving in this controlling and dominating way.
Speaker 1:Well, the beauty of the work that we do at Genesis is we don't just heal trauma right. So we can heal trauma with our clinical counseling and other programs that we offer. But neuroplasticity works in many, many ways. We can also rewire the brain through the conversations and repetitions of showing them positive role models.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly. So again, the idea of being in domestic violence is a very narrowing. It's a very narrowing of my world. So these kids have had their worlds very narrowed in To the point where you hear a lot of kids sort of think that I'm supposed to grow up and do this job because that's what my parents did, or live in this place because that's where my parents right. It's very narrowing, and so one of the things that we try to do at Genesis oftentimes is just expose our kiddos to other options, just have them around other people who do different things, look different ways, speak different ways of speaking, that kind of thing right.
Speaker 3:So an example I've got two sort of examples of this that I love. One of them is through our children's department. Our children's department is so great at our residential campus of being able to put on a Camp G every year, and Camp G will allow for field trips. And, yes, these field trips are fun. But I am so proud of our children's director because she really understands that it's not just about the fun, it's about the new experiences that this child has never had and that, in exposure to those new things, this idea of, well, maybe my future could look different, kind of comes from it, right.
Speaker 3:The other really direct way that we do this is through our heroes auxiliary group. So our heroes auxiliary group, our hero stands for he who respects others. They have a mentorship program that they do with our kiddos, or they come and grill, or they come and hang out with our families, right. And so it's this absolute moment where our kids are getting to witness other ways of being a man, other types of men, other ways of dressing than how my dad dressed, other jobs than the job that my dad had, other ways of talking than how my dad talks. And again, the idea is sort of a broadening of those options. If they see these other options out there, these other ways of being out there, it sort of gets internalized as well. Maybe I could be something different too.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think that opportunity to expand the life experience of a child of anyone really, but of a child in particular will help to perpetuate a culture, shift away from toxic masculinity into more healthy habits and hopefully approach equity in the future, more equitable relationships and embrace the value of human life, because that really is the end game of everything that we do at Genesis.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like the way you said that. I think the truth is that this can be a little bit of a complicated conversation, especially in the time in which you and I have to have it, but the point is that to broaden somebody's life is healthiness, right. So, whether that be to broaden their identity and the way that they see themselves, to broaden their experiences, to broaden the people that they have interactions with, that this creates healthiness and more healthiness, and so, within this conversation, yeah, what we're talking about is the ways in which Genesis can help somebody identify their identity and explore other areas of it, or help a kiddo experience things that just have them start to think about the what ifs of life.
Speaker 1:Once again, it's been great talking with you, jordan, and you always kind of give us lots of options for helping moms and children escape domestic violence, but also, in this case, how to raise boys.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Go, boy, moms Go boy moms Calling or texting our 24-7 crisis hotline team at 214-946-HELP 214-946-4357. Bilingual services at Genesis include text, phone call, clinical counseling, legal services, advocacy and more. Call or text us for more information. Donations to support women and children escaping domestic violence are always needed. Learn more at genesisshelterorg slash donate. Thanks for joining us. I'm reminding you always that ending domestic violence begins when we believe her.
Speaker 2:Genesis El Podjas anunces bilingual services available in Genesis Women's Shelter, eSupport. If you or a known person are in an abusive relationship, you can receive help or help GenesisShelterorg or by calling or sending text messages to our 24-7 crisis hotline team at 214-946-4357. Bilingual services at Genesis include text messages, calls, counseling, legal services, advocacy and more. Call or text us for more information. Donations are always needed to support women or children escaping domestic violence. Learn more at our website at genesisshelterorg slash donate. Thanks for joining us. Remember that ending domestic violence begins when we believe in the victim.