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Behind the Courtroom Door: Understanding the Role of Expert Witnesses in Domestic Violence Trials

• Genesis Women's Shelter

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Genesis Women's Shelter & Support is often called upon to provide expert witness testimony in domestic violence cases. To better understand the role of the expert witness and how they can help facilitate an understanding of domestic violence for legal teams, judges, and jurors, Ruth Guerreiro, LCSW and Genesis' Chief Clinical Officer, and Jordyn Lawson, LPC and Genesis' Chief Residential Officer, join the conversation in an episode that is both educational and enlightening. 

In this episode, our guests explain how they navigate the labyrinth of legal proceedings, illuminating the cornerstones of domestic violence dynamics and the significant role the expert witness plays in providing context and education to the courtroom. They also prepare us for the complexities of this process - from the questions attorneys may pose to the delicate task of determining which testimony bears relevance. We also dive into the impacts of domestic violence on children and the disheartening reasons why victims often refrain from participating in court hearings. 

We dig into the contrasting roles of fact and expert witnesses, learn how they can support victims by providing crucial insights to the court, and how their consultation can guide attorneys through the murky waters of domestic violence cases. We expose the tactics used by defendants and the strategies that can empower victims to have their voices heard in the courtroom. Lastly, we delve into how the expert testimony of our guests is used by juries, how it influences the sentencing hearing, and how it can help untangle the manipulative narratives spun by defense attorneys. Join us, as we unravel the intricacies of domestic violence cases and understand the true context and dynamics of abuse with expert insight that brings to light the importance of educating the court on the often misunderstood dynamics of domestic violence.

Speaker 1:

Rule 702 in the state of Texas identifies testimony by an expert witness as a witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if the expert's scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact. In issue here to help us understand how an expert witness can be helpful to survivors in cases of domestic violence are Genesis's own, ruth Garedo and Jordan Lawson, both experts in responding to the trauma of women and children who experience abuse. I'm Maria McMullen and this is Genesis, the podcast, jordan and Ruth. Welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you, we're glad to be back. Thanks, I'm glad to have you here.

Speaker 1:

In the introduction of this episode, we provided the Texas Code for Rule 702 that defines who the expert witness is and what qualifies such as an individual to be called to the stand in court and I know this is an area that's very familiar to both of you and we hear about such witnesses in high profile cases, and these experts might include physicians with particular specialties or even law enforcement officers who are perhaps forensic experts In cases of domestic violence. Both of you are licensed professionals Ruth as a licensed clinical social worker and Jordan as a licensed professional counselor and have participated in a trial. So let's talk about your experiences and what qualifies social workers and counselors as expert witnesses. And there are others at Genesis too. Yes, you have done the same in court as expert witnesses. So, jordan, we'll just start with you what qualifies someone to be an expert witness?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so according to rule 702, right, you can be an expert witness based on your education, your area of study. That includes ongoing studies and ongoing trainings. You can be an expert based on any research that you might be performing. But really what qualifies Genesis therapists or advocates as experts is our direct experience with clients. So we are able to, we're able to, kind of demonstrate to the court our educational background, our ongoing trainings are kind of educational awareness and understanding based on that training specific to domestic violence or trauma or the impact of domestic violence on children, and then pair that with our direct experience with clients.

Speaker 1:

So when you do that now, if you're called to be an expert witness, is it a case that you are already familiar with, or could it just be for domestic violence in general? So kind of depends.

Speaker 2:

Ruth and I have been called on both and we have experience with a lot of different areas of court. So, for example, both of us have been called in criminal hearings where the DA's office was calling us to provide education to the court, but we didn't have any understanding of who the victim was or who the defendant was. And I have I think you have two, ruth we've actually testified in criminal cases before where I didn't even know what the charges were. So we really can go in blind and not have any information about the specific case but again be able to provide education specific to dynamics of domestic violence. And sometimes the benefit of that is that you know we, we don't know any of the information. We're literally just coming to provide the education, right.

Speaker 1:

So Ruth, why don't you tell us about the role of the expert witness in a domestic violence trial?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so I really think of it as the role is to teach the fact finder about the dynamics of abuse, really being able to bring in context, right. So Jordan's talking about, for example, when we go to criminal hearings, they might be talking the charges are one specific incident of physical abuse, let's say, or sexual abuse, and what we as the experts can do is can bring into the context of the situation, meaning we're talking about the verbal and emotional abuse that had gone into it, how it had escalated to the situation, the fear that she was experiencing. We testify a lot on how, how it impacts the victim, maybe like how she presents in court, and so really just being able to provide that information as an expert witness. We're not there advocating for the client or for the victim, right, and you mentioned whether it's somebody we know where we don't know. Our job there is not to like win the case, right, that's the attorney's job. And we're not there advocating because we do. We are just there to give facts.

Speaker 1:

So how do you prepare for that, especially when you don't know anything about the case?

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

So we really appreciate the attorneys who prepare with us.

Speaker 3:

You know, I think that being able to talk through some of the facts can be helpful in knowing okay, these are some of the questions that they're going to ask, or these are some of the hypotheticals they might pose. What I have found most helpful is if they can tell me a little bit about the relationship that the couple had had and I then can say, oh, sounds like I could talk about financial abuse or oh, do you want me to talk about strangulation? When they tell me like, oh, there was a history of strangulation. But really being able to go through with the attorney and talk about some of of course we're not talking about all of the details, and if it's a client of Genesis, a client of ours, then we would already know some of that and so we wouldn't have to prepare. So it really just does depend on the case, but it's really helpful to be able to talk with the attorneys and say, like, these are the things I can testify to and, you know, and these are the things that we can't testify to.

Speaker 1:

What are some examples of each of those?

Speaker 2:

So, for example, we can testify, of course, to dynamics of domestic violence. We can talk about and explain the cycle of violence and why it matters. So, for example, that honeymoon stage and why maybe at times she didn't appear fearful of him but she's reporting being afraid he was going to murder her. We can sort of explain that in regards to the cycle. Like Ruth said, we can also explain the escalation of violence and why we feel like so. For example, if we were providing expert testimony in a protective order hearing, we could explain why these incidents of domestic violence that have happened before also have us concerned that there could be an escalation of violence and more severe violence could happen in the future.

Speaker 2:

In family court, for example, things that we will testify to is the impact of domestic violence on children. So we can say that if one of the parents is abusive and children continue to be exposed to that violence, how will that impact them or affect them? Right, but what we're not going to do is we're not going to say who's the better parent or who should be a given full custody. We don't make kind of recommendations.

Speaker 1:

So just the facts Related to domestic violence or what you've seen in behaviors and so on.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you know, it's really common for victims of domestic violence to not call 911 or to not want to participate in court. Let's say they call 911, but now they don't want to get on the stand and testify. And so a lot of times we're called to testify about why that would be understandable, why that would be normal for a woman to not call 911 or to want to stay with the abusive partner or to not want to participate in the court hearing. So, you know, it could be a range of things. Maybe it's that she was on the stand and she, you know, in her testimony looked like nothing affected her, that she was just very, you know, cold and numb, and we could talk about why that would be understandable because of the living in survival mode right from the trauma. Or maybe she told the police one story but then later she told the police a different story, and so then we talk about why that could be explained.

Speaker 2:

I think the truth is that the court, the legal system, is very, of course, facts based right, as it should be, and it can be really black and white. Dna is their fingerprints, is their DNA samples. These are can be really black or white, yes or no. And the reality is, domestic violence can be a lot more contextual than that. It can be a lot more complicated and sort of explaining why certain things happen, including why did somebody stay in an abusive relationship for the period that they took, or why, like Ruth said, why you know do they, why do they drink alcohol right? Why you know these kind of things, that that can be a part of the contextual story. Expert testimony can be really good at trying to just give that information to then be paired with the facts to understand the big picture.

Speaker 1:

Because, ultimately, you all, or at least the fact finder, is trying to convince this jury of one thing or another, and they may not have the level or depth of information About victims of domestic violence if they're sitting on that jury right.

Speaker 3:

So if it's, if it's a court hearing where there's a jury yes, we are talking to the jury, right, we are being able to help them understand the dynamics of abuse and why she might act a certain way or why this behavior that he did was actually abusive, even though it might not look like it's abusive. Yeah, and when there's trials that do not have a jury, then we're talking to the judge to help them understand.

Speaker 1:

And I would think in some cases it's an education for the judge, for and for everyone else in the courtroom. I mean, is that been your experience?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that's the entire purpose. To be honest with you, right, the truth is is that the, the myths of domestic violence still very much remain in our society, and so if you get 12 people who come in for a jury, you know they're not 12 Genesis people, they're not 12 therapists or psychologists, or, and so their understanding of these really complex issues Could be limited. Right, maybe they've had personal experience and so, or their sister or brother or somebody close to them has had personal experience and that sort of created some biases within it too, and so we've definitely experienced that the ability to try to give the clear Information about what is domestic violence and what made this incident domestic violence why does it matter? You know, trying to explain why her presentation doesn't necessarily mean she's lying or should be doubted. We have found that that's really important because, again, those, those myths, can be really prevalent in the jury.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that's important for us to keep in mind now. When an attorney wants to call an expert witness for a case that involves domestic violence, how do they know to call Genesis, or or any other agency for that matter, to Find someone like, like either one of you or Jan or anybody on the team?

Speaker 3:

Well, we've been doing this for quite a quite a few years. So are you only called to Dallas County? Oh no, that's a great question, right, we go to Rockwall, we go to Collin County, terrent County, ruth, you've done.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, a court at Fort Hood, so yeah, a military-based court. We've done federal courts. Covid was kind of an interesting experience because courts went to sort of a zoom platform and so we have provided expert testimony outside of even our immediate area. I've done it in San Antonio and Austin, and so that that virtual court has allowed us to do it wherever.

Speaker 2:

I think the truth is is that we get called because we've sort of become known that Genesis does this and not a lot of agencies are doing it as much as Genesis is committed to do it, just as Genesis is really experienced Directly the importance of this information being in the courtroom, and so we're, we really value and are committed to providing this and helping as much as possible. We can't do it in every single case because there's so many. You'd be surprised how many times we're asked to do it and and we of course this is not our only job.

Speaker 1:

I was gonna say I don't know how you Fit all of it in, but I'm I'm so glad that you do.

Speaker 2:

Well, we've directly experienced how it mattered to be a really honest with you right, how we were able to Explain something and really help the jury or the judge see, and it really made a difference for the survivor in that moment, and so, because of that, was really committed To be really frank. We we've experienced certain court systems in certain counties that have less information and less DV education than others, and so there's certain counties that were like, oh no, we want to say yes in that county because we're really concerned about whether or not they have the information. So they reach out to us because they know that Genesis does it. But I think one of the things that Ruth and I would tell you do is we're hopeful that this podcast would actually Inspire other DV agencies to step up providing of this service so that we're able to do this and more hearings and more cases and more courtrooms.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so let's speak to them for a minute. What would they have to do to prepare and how could you know other? How could the legal community or the criminal justice Community or the core system find these other agencies?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's a great question. So there are different trainings that are available to become an expert witness, but you you didn't. You're not required to do the training. It just would be something that could be helpful to you. But really anybody who has experience working with women in domestic violence or sexual assault Can become qualified in court as an expert. You don't have to do this training, but there are some trainings you could attend, and that's also one way, then, that your name gets put on a list and then it gets sent out to other DA offices, or the attorneys that were attending that same Training would then get your contact information. Oh, so attorneys go to this training as well. Yes, which I love, because then attorneys learn how to use an expert in court, right?

Speaker 2:

I think there's a difference between sort of using expert and knowing how to use an expert.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

There is sort of that ability to know how to use us.

Speaker 2:

So that wasn't in law school Not that we're aware of. We've definitely talked to some attorneys and sort of been able to, like Ruth said, we have done this so frequently. To be honest, they can tell us a case. I mean you'll be like, okay, well, I could explain that or I could do that. Or Sometimes we've had the opportunity to sit in the courtroom while hearings are going on and heard other testimony and been able to let the attorney know like okay, this, this is being misunderstood in the courtroom. I could speak to that and explain something. So some we're able to sort of help sometimes understand how interesting out.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, sometimes I found it's even Even helpful to only provide consultation. Right, so an attorney will call us and talk about hey, I have this case, can we consult? And we'll be able to talk to them about. Okay, well, this, you know, this is what's going on, this is what I'm hearing, I'm not surprised about this. And sometimes they say, okay, well, I don't have enough time in my hearing to bring you as an expert, but thank you, that was really helpful for me to be able to understand the dynamics.

Speaker 1:

It's funny you say that because I'm like when you were kind of explaining it, I was like this would be a great consultant job to be a trial consultant for, you know, these domestic violence cases.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I, I find it really rewarding to be able to feel like I can help in some way provide Some information, not just to the public, to the jury, but also to help the victim Know that they are heard, that they are seen, that this wasn't their fault. Um, you know, and again, like Like Jordan said, we can't go to every single trial. So if one attorney, let's say a prosecutor, has us testify for one case but then we have to say no to another case, at least they know, like, what our testimony was, so that they know how to how to present their case in court.

Speaker 2:

Well, and you know, historically speaking, in domestic violence cases it's kind of a he said, she said issue and I just it's, it's not really there's a clear thing that happened. But when you're trying to present it to court, you oftentimes have a victim who's saying that this happened and a defendant who's saying something totally different. And what is very normal in domestic violence, because of those dynamics of um, of escalation, but also that honeymoon period and also just the ways in which perpetrators or abusers Perpetrate and ensure that they can continue to have control over their victim, there's not clear evidence, right? There might not be a text message with a clear threat, there might not Um.

Speaker 2:

And so, because of that um, the way that defendants attempt to win these cases is to discredit the, the victim. The strategy, every single time when it is an issue of domestic violence, is to make her either um appear to be lying or crazy, incapable of telling the story, or to make her be the aggressor and and blame it on her. And so, again, being able to go into the court system and explain these kind of things and being able to um Sort of explain even what's happening in the courtroom and why, it's also Continuation of the domestic violence. We oftentimes hear victims say that that we were able to help them have a voice in the courtroom that they didn't really feel like they were able to have without our our testimony?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because I mean that makes sense to me. It can be challenging for the victim to really know how to explain her behavior or what her thought process was at the time that there may have been an incident, or she called the police.

Speaker 2:

Um and especially when he's sitting right there in the room exactly exactly so.

Speaker 1:

There are also other types of witnesses, so help us understand the difference between the expert witness and the fact witness.

Speaker 2:

OK, so fact witnesses are witnesses who, like, just like it says, they testify to the facts, and so usually in our field that's the counselor or the advocate who met with the client, right? So if I have a client on my caseload and I'm providing direct individual or group therapy with her, I could be a fact witness because I would testify to what was reported in our sessions, what our therapeutic work was. So the facts would be my direct work with the client. Expert testimony goes a little bit past fact and it talks broadly about dynamics of stuff. So, for example, you can actually be a fact witness and an expert witness at the same time.

Speaker 1:

I was just going to ask you can you be both? Yeah, you can be both.

Speaker 2:

And, truthfully, going back to your question to Ruth, if you are somebody who has education, you have experience and you have knowledge, you can be qualified as an expert. We are asked to demonstrate those. But Jan, ruth and I have been providing this the longest and all three of us have very different education backgrounds, very different licensures and experiences. But we can qualify in different ways because, again, we can demonstrate that knowledge and that experience and understanding and so you can be both at the same time and it allows you, if you are both at the same time, it allows you to say here's what the client reported to me. What I witnessed and observed was evidence of trauma. Based on these symptoms, based on this consistent presentation and these are facts. These are facts.

Speaker 2:

If I'm the children's therapist, I can report on the children's behavior in play therapy sessions or the children's significant statements that were made in sessions. Again, I can report to symptoms or behavioral demonstrations of the trauma that they've experienced. But being an expert allows me to go a little bit further. So not only do I say this is a fact of what happened in our play therapy sessions, but that expert witness label or qualification is the better word. It allows me to then explain the significance of that due to domestic violence. So I can say the kid who reported not sleeping good because he's having nightmares and he stated that this is what his nightmare was he drew me a picture of this. If I'm an expert witness and I'm qualified in that way, I then can go further and explain. This is a common symptom of children who have experienced trauma and evidence of exposure to the trauma of domestic violence.

Speaker 1:

So give us an idea of maybe some questions that you're most frequently asked on the stand. Because when I think about these cases, one of the most famous ones that comes to mind for me is the OJ Simpson trial. Now, that was a criminal case, that was a murder case, and not everyone listening may be familiar with the OJ trial. It's very prominent For me. I kind of lived through it with everyone else in the United States, watching it on TV. But there was a moment when Lenore Walker, who is a domestic violence researcher, author and expert on what used to be labeled as battered women, participated in the trial and spoke as an expert witness on domestic violence and it did kind of shift the picture a little bit, and not in a good way for the victims in this case. So to that point, can you talk about how experts can, like yourselves, can really support survivors by providing this expert testimony and then others can contradict perhaps what testimony you've provided?

Speaker 3:

So the reality is, whoever is being the expert witness, we're going to come on court, come up to the stand, we're going to be able to share the information that we have and really it's up to the attorneys on how they're going to use that. I will tell you, in my experience, defense attorneys are always going to try to use anything that I say to twist the words, to change it. So that, oh, so that means that it could be also this thing. So, for example, we talk about how trauma affects the brain. Well, not everybody is the same. We talked about that in another episode, right, that some people fight, some people run away, some people freeze, and so if I'm giving testimony on how her fighting back could be because of the trauma, because she's in her survival state and her amygdala has taken over her brain, the defense might come up, for example, and say, oh, but it could be that she was the one being aggressive and that it wasn't that she was in survival mode, right, and I might have to say, well, in the situation that she was in, it sounded like she was fearful for her life.

Speaker 3:

They're going to, of course, not agree with that, right? They're going to object because now I'm not answering the question and so, as a trained expert witness, my answer would have to be yes, it is possible, and so they are going to use that. You know they're going to try to discredit us, just like Jordan was saying, they're going to discredit the victim, they're going to try to discredit us. So I think the question of how does one expert's testimony help and how does another expert's testimony not help, I think that's really up to the attorneys and how they question and how they phrase it. I don't know. Do you have other answers?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think the truth is just strongly that we're there to provide information that then the judge and the jury have to apply to the case as they see it apply, right? Expert testimony is not a means of proving a case, and so Ruth and I aren't going up there to try to prove anything. Or, and to be really honest with you, maria, we're not going up there to advocate for the victim, right? Because even if we do know her, oftentimes we're not the fact witnesses. We don't have all of the information. We for sure weren't in the home or wherever the incident occurred. We for sure weren't there as a witness, right? And so the truth is is that we're not there to prove anything or try to advocate directly for her. What we are hoping to do is to provide information that is significant, that has a major play in the situation, and by providing that information, we hope it clarifies some of the facts, we hope it provides context to the facts and we hope that the victim's voice is heard through the explanation of it.

Speaker 2:

You were saying how could we be used against a victim? The go-to argument against us always is going to be that we're biased for women and that we just believe all women, right. How's that an argument? I mean, that's the argument that we're coming in and we believe everybody and we're just trying to prove that she's right and he's wrong because we hate men, right? That's from the defense side. What is the basis?

Speaker 3:

of that. That's just well. Again, they're going to ask us do we have doctorate degrees? Well, how many master's degrees do you have? It's just a way to discredit us.

Speaker 2:

I think the truth is in court, especially at the defense, they don't have to have a basis, they just try to have an argument to cut through your point, right. And so I oftentimes explain that it's not that we just believe everybody right, it's that we're not going to say that for sure. The way every victim told us an incident happened is exactly how it happened. What we're going to say is we believe her experience in that situation, and what that oftentimes means is we believe that she was afraid, we believe that she was impacted by this, we believe the symptoms that she's reporting, and we believe it because we've seen the presentation. We've seen her come in for appointments and repeatedly told us how she's experiencing the week and how she's having symptoms. Or her telling of the incident shows the dynamics of domestic violence. We can see the cycle of violence when she says her testimony and she says how it happens, and so that's sort of the way in which we try to show that we believe that this experience happened to her, but we can't prove it.

Speaker 3:

Because we're going to say that, with my experience, education, training background I have been able to learn what is congruent, what matches what other victims of domestic violence present, right, how they present, and so being able to say, using my specialized knowledge, I can therefore deduce that, yes, she presents as a typical victim of domestic violence.

Speaker 1:

How has your testimony helped juries make their decisions? Have you ever called back to answer a question by a jury? I've never been called back?

Speaker 3:

No, I haven't either. Sometimes attorneys, instead of using us during the hearing, they'll use us during the sentencing hearing, and so that would be a time when, yes, like that's after everything right, and then the jury has some questions.

Speaker 2:

But we have gotten reports from attorneys. So usually attorneys will have the opportunity after the trial to sort of question juries and kind of hear why they made the decision that they heard. And so we have heard from attorneys that juries has said that our testimony was used and sort of again understanding the context of all of these things. So we've gotten that report before We've heard from judges. Before that it was important to hear from us.

Speaker 2:

Again, going back to that defense thing, they'll try to twist and use anything against a victim. So for example, if she is going to Genesis for counseling and her attendance is kind of inconsistent, she misses a couple of appointments. It doesn't matter the logic of her kid got sick or there was traffic that was bad, or she just was tired and didn't want to go that week, which is really human and normal. A defense attorney will say her attendance is evidence that she's not that upset or she's not afraid, Right, exactly. So they'll twist all of that. So we oftentimes a part of expert witness, our testimony as an expert witness, could be sort of explaining those things and saying like that doesn't mean she's lying, that doesn't mean this, it means that she's human. Inconsistent therapy attendance is kind of normal in therapy, and so we've heard in those kind of examples from judges that it was helpful to them to sort of again understand the big picture kind of contextual thing and not as black and white as they try to make it sometimes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean that that makes sense to me that there can be all kinds of interpretations and, yes, the defense is definitely going to twist things in favor of whoever they're representing Usually a piece of partners. But so if somebody listening to this podcast wants one of you or someone at Genesis or any expert witness in their court case, what do they need to do in order to start that process?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so I always talk about how the so of course, the judge is in charge in the courtroom, but I always talk about how the attorney is like the boss of the case, right, and so if the attorney wants us to testify, then the attorney can reach out to us and we can have a conversation. We can see what are they hoping that we could testify about. We will be able to answer like, we can talk about this. We, you know we can't testify about that, and then the attorney, if they decide we want, they want us to come, then we would schedule through them. So we have had people I've had people call and ask like, oh hey, you know, I really want you to be able to come to my trial and come and testify for me. And I'll say, well, have you talked to your attorney yet? Oh, no, like, okay, like, talk to your attorney, have your attorney contact me, and yeah, then we just go from there.

Speaker 2:

We've had times where attorneys have reached out wanting us to provide like an evaluation, like a forensic eval or a psyche eval. I just think it's important for us to say in this moment that we do not provide that at Genesis, that as an expert witness we aren't going to necessarily meet with the client and provide clinical services to then be able to testify in court. We very much are going for Genesis. The way we do it is we can either come in there with information that the attorney gives us and be able to sort of answer questions and speak to the case or, of course, if the victim becomes a client of Genesis, then we can sort of look at who the fact witness would be in the expert testimony. But if you're putting it out there that we do this, it feels like a moment that we should say we are not able to do that part of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

No, that makes a lot of sense, but at times when it's better to not use an expert witness, and just give us a few examples.

Speaker 2:

Pro se is kind of the main one. So we try to be really protective of victims in court because, again, it's a really hard system to navigate and it's a really hard. It's a system, again, that can can. I know that people really want to believe in the truth of the justice system, but the truth is that it can be twisted and and turned really easily. And so if a client is representing themselves pro se in a hearing, we will oftentimes say that we're not able to provide because we don't want to be used against the victim and if, if that person is not sort of adequately know how to use an expert witness and how to qualify an expert with, if they don't know the rules.

Speaker 2:

seven or two yes how to object to what the defense may be asking, like we could get used against somebody, and so we are sort of protective in that way and we'll say no in those situations.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's pretty smart. What would you like for all attorneys to understand about domestic violence court cases?

Speaker 2:

My answer is just that it's more complicated than this black and white view, right, and I think too I think you said it perfectly, ruth I like what you said.

Speaker 2:

The court hearing is about this single incident typically, right, like it's really not a thing to hold very often, and I guess I guess I don't want to speak as a lawyer, but in my experience it's not a thing to hold somebody onto charges of an entire abusive relationship, right, it's usually this incident of physical abuse or sexual assault, and so I think, because of that, attorneys can be very kind of narrow, focused on that incident, and so I think my thing would just be to encourage them to sort of step back from it and really understand the dynamics that come into play, to really understand whether or not somebody is being truthful based on contextual information, the impact of trauma, like all of these things, rather than well, her story changes, she can't remember something, so she must be lying, right, or it must not have really happened, because the next day she was texting him and talking to him, and so if she's talking to him, she must not have really had the incident happened.

Speaker 2:

You know, those kinds of things. I think my the thing that comes up for me in this moment is just really wanting attorneys to understand how contextual it is, how patterned domestic violence is, and so there's more than just this incident and how intentional it is, and the coverup of it is intentional too. So in other podcasts we've talked about social engineering, maria, and how the abuser will purposely and intentionally do things to make himself look like a good guy or sort of cover up, and those things come into court all the time and they're the things that you know where she gets accused of being crazy or an alcoholic or a bad mom or um, and he uses his record as the baseball coach or the elder at church as like the evidence that he didn't do this and she she's lying you know the ultimate gaslighting?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Trying to fool everyone to be one person and then be someone else at home yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Like, not everything is as it appears, and even if you don't have time to bring in an expert witness or you don't, you know you don't want to because of whatever reason if you could at least consult with someone in a DV agency to be able to understand the context, understand, you know, the dynamics of abuse and the myths of abuse. That's a very common thing that we're testifying to, because you know well, why didn't she just leave? She must not have been scared. Why didn't she call the police? So there are a lot of things that, um, that we could at least answer.

Speaker 2:

I also think, for if we're talking directly to attorneys, um, you know, attorneys put a lot of emphasis on winning the case and I definitely we definitely appreciate that, we definitely understand, especially in certain cases it comes with consequences and those consequences like jail time or things like that could be protection for her, could be protection and safety for society, to be frank, right Um, and so that can be really important. But I think a controversial thing I might say in this moment to attorneys is that oftentimes for victims of domestic violence especially, the case is not everything. They still have a whole life that they're living. And so I like what you said, ruth, about the pairing with um, an understanding DV and knowing who your DV partners are and your agencies are in the area, Because again, we've seen that it's that collaboration between attorneys, um and the trauma work of advocacy and therapy that can really holistically help a victim um really get protection and really move forward in her life, not just winning this one case.

Speaker 3:

Well, and I love that you're saying that because if she's, if she has children with him, right then, no matter what the sentence is, whether he's found guilty or innocent, or he's in jail for life or a few years like she, will always have to have some type of contact with him or with his family. So it is ongoing, right. Just because they go to jail, just because the judge tells you, tells him to leave her alone, doesn't mean he's going to leave her alone and so definitely being able for the attorneys to be able to understand she's still got a whole long life with him.

Speaker 1:

So if someone is going to prepare to be an expert witness in a domestic violence case, like a counselor or an advocate, especially someone who has not done this before, what advice would you give them?

Speaker 2:

I think my first advice is again to consult with the attorneys, like Ruth said, and I just have to say Ruth's brilliant at consulting with attorneys. She's got a whole list of questions and stuff that she could share with you too. That's just not surprising, I know right, it's brilliant, it's like really good, it's such a good guide. But, but again, we would say, talk to the attorneys and really understand what they're wanting to use you for and don't be afraid to say that you're not the right person to speak to that thing. So we've had hearings where they've called and said, hey, we'd like for you to testify about, you know, trafficking or sexual abuse, or I'm trying to think, and we're like, well, we could, but we're really not the best, we're not really the expert on that, so we don't think we would be the best use of this. So don't be afraid to tell the attorney that that's not your area of expertise and that you can't really speak to that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I would add, to remind yourself that you're not in charge of winning right you, like you're not going there to win the case and so being able to take off that pressure, and counselors and advocates who really love helping and therefore, in the helping field, tend to have that type of personality that you know they want to do the very best job, which is wonderful, and that's not your job when you go to court, I would say definitely practice, practice with a supervisor or a co-worker the question so that you have succinct answers, so that the judge or the jury don't get bored or don't get lost in whatever analogy you're trying to share. And I love what Jordan said like you get to say no, and even on the stand you get to say I can't testify to that or I don't know, I don't remember, so that you don't. You don't have to have that pressure that you have to say everything, exactly right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, nobody believes somebody that tries to demonstrate themselves to be perfect and all knowing right. So it's actually a good thing to be authentic and honest on the stand. It adds to your credibility to be able to say, I don't know, like I can't remember that, or I'm not aware, or I never read that book right. Like that could be something too. I think too. I just have a.

Speaker 1:

I have a quick question to that point are you under oath as an expert witness? Yes, okay, yeah, that was unanimous.

Speaker 2:

Yes, you have to tell the truth, and so again, okay so you have to tell the truth anyway, if you didn't read the book.

Speaker 2:

You didn't read the book. No, the truth is that I've been, if especially in the beginning and Ruth, I'm hoping you'll say you did this too but I would go on the stand and I would sort of get mentally twisted because I was trying to. You know, like the attorney that called me would ask questions. But then when the defense would ask me, I try to anticipate why they were asking me that question and how were they gonna twist it and how do I? Sometimes they ask you questions and they want you to answer yes or no, but I'm a therapist.

Speaker 2:

Hardly anything is yes or no for me right, and so it would be hard and I'd like try to get around and and it would just like mentally twist me up and so, like Ruth said, sort of understanding that that I don't have to be all knowing and and I'm perfect on the stand and I can just say no, or I can just say I don't know, or one of my favorite ones is I don't understand the question. Can you ask me again? Sometimes they ask you weird questions in weird ways. It really can add to them understanding that you really are there just to provide the education, and the education is the truth.

Speaker 3:

I think that's really good advice yeah, no, I agree, I think I'm going into court. If you can think okay, I have information that they don't have and therefore it's not like I have to be this perfect teacher and I have to answer everything to help the client, but really what I'm doing is just answering with the information, and so that means you're going to acquiesce when the defense tries to say something, and because that is the truth, right? So the best expert witness is not biased towards the victim or towards the offender, they just are providing the information so it's to inform, not persuade, exactly.

Speaker 1:

Basically, these are are the facts. So we're back to.

Speaker 2:

We're back to the beginning of what we started with, just, but I think if you don't mind, maria, it just comes up for me to say and I don't mean this in like a casual, blasé way, but I think I just be honest and saying it's really not that hard. I think the courtroom is intimidating to people, right? We think it's SVU, right, and they're gonna yell at you and it's gonna be yes, and it's not right. The judges are very understanding they're. They're very understanding that you're nervous, like they're, and so it's really not that hard. And so in that, and also Ruth and I would love to support people with sitting down and talking about it with them or the consultations to help.

Speaker 2:

Um, so with that I can't help, but just take the the opportunity to say we really do challenge those in the therapeutic field or in the social work field, or to be available to provide this service to people who really need it in a very complicated system. Because the truth is is there's a lot of therapists out there who don't want to go to court and they don't think they should and and and we know that it is absolutely within the ethics of our licensure to be able to go to court and tell the truth. Right, you would get in trouble if you weren't telling the truth. But if you go in and say I don't know or I can't speak to that, it's perfectly within your ethics and you're able to do it based on your education and your experience, not have to speak about things you don't know. So I just can't help but take the opportunity to say there should be a lot more people willing to provide this information in the courtroom, because the courtroom is the area that abusers are trying to attack her and hurt her.

Speaker 3:

Next, and just I'm gonna say, personally, like I love going to court, I think that it's of course it's nervous, it's nerve-wracking, right, um, but there are so many things, so many times, that we have to say no, that I feel so guilty. I would love more people in DFW to be able to provide expert witness, so that then I can say I'm sorry, I can't, but here's a long list of all of these other therapists that you could call and see if they would be able to.

Speaker 2:

Victims of domestic violence are being left to um to protect themselves and educate the courtroom and everything on their own, while being traumatized, while being re-triggered because their abuser is sitting right there in the room, right um, while defending themselves. And they they really do deserve and should have more support and more people speaking up for them in courtrooms.

Speaker 1:

This has been extremely informative. Um I feel like an expert about expert witnesses now. Uh, thank you both of you for joining me today.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for having us.

Speaker 1:

Attention Spanish-speaking listeners. Listen to the end of this podcast for information on how to reach a Spanish-speaking representative of Genesis.

Speaker 4:

If you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship.

Speaker 1:

You can get help or give help at genesisshelterorg or by calling or texting our 24-7 crisis hotline team at 214-946-HELP 214-946-4357. Bilingual services at Genesis include text, phone call, clinical counseling, legal services, advocacy and more. Call or text us for more information. Donations to support women and children escaping domestic violence are always needed. Learn more at genesisshelterorg slash donate. Thanks for joining us and reminding you always that ending domestic violence begins when we believe her.

Speaker 4:

Genesis. El podcast anuncia servicios bilingües disponibles en Genesis women's shelter y support. Si usted o una conocida este en una relación abusiva, puede recibir ayuda o dar ayuda a genesis shelter punto o rg. O por llamar o mandar mensaje de texto a nuestra linea de crisis de 24 horas al 214-946-4357. Servicios bilingües de genesis incluyen mensajes de texto, llamadas, consejería, servicios legales, asesoría y más. Llámenos o mandenos un text para más información. Siempre se necesitan donaciones para apoyar a los, las mujeres o a los niños escapando de la violencia doméstica. Aprende más a nuestra página de internet en genesis shelter punto o rg. Barra inclinada donate. Gracias por unirse con nosotros. Recuerden que el terminar la violencia doméstica empieza cuando creemos a la víctima.