Genesis The Podcast

Championing Change: Reflections on 3 Seasons of Genesis The Podcast

• Genesis Women's Shelter & Support

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In this final episode of season 3, Maria MacMullin and Genesis CEO Jan Langbein take you on a reflective journey through the most impactful moments from the past three seasons of Genesis the Podcast. Special highlights include transformative insights from renowned expert Lundy Bancroft, whose work has been pivotal in reshaping how we view abuser accountability and support for survivors.

This episode doesn't shy away from the tough issues. We explore the devastating impact of non-physical forms of abuse and the lethal risks posed by firearms in abusive relationships. Hear compelling stories from survivors like Stephanie Bond, who bravely shares her struggles and triumphs in seeking legal protection. Learn why recent Supreme Court decisions offer hope but also underscore the ongoing need for vigilant advocacy and legal reforms. We also delve deeper into the psychological barriers victims face and why love and abuse can tragically coexist, drawing on Rachel Louise Snyder’s thoughtful perspectives.

Finally, we celebrate the milestones and memorable guests that have shaped our journey since launching the podcast in September 2021. Reflect on the wisdom of advocates like Leslie Morgan Steiner who remind us that survivors are their own best experts. With a look towards the future, we discuss the importance of continued education, community support, and effective safety planning. This episode is a powerful call to action, urging all of us to support and stand with survivors in the fight against domestic violence. Don't miss this poignant and empowering conversation as we wrap up season three and lay the groundwork for what's to come.

Speaker 1:

Joining me today is Genesis CEO, jan Langbein, as we wrap up season three of Genesis the podcast and take a sneak peek at what's coming this fall. I'm Maria McMullin and this is Genesis, the podcast launched in 2021. And since that time, we've had nearly 100 conversations about domestic violence with experts from around the world. Over the course of three years, we have discussed at least 10 books on the subject of domestic violence, including the Body Keeps the Score by Dr Bessel van der Kolk.

Speaker 1:

Crazy Love by Leslie Morgan Steiner. Think Like a Feminist by Dr Carol Hay. It's Grief by ED Nathan why does he Do that? And when Dad Hurts Mom, both by Lundy Bancroft Leaving by Conchan Basker. Children of Coercive Control by Dr Evan Stark. Women we Buried, women we Burned, by Rachel Louise Snyder. Truth and Repair by Dr Judith Herman.

Speaker 1:

We've discussed films like the Barbie movie and the documentary this Is when I Learned Not to Sleep the story of Mark Wynn. We've talked to numerous experts in fields of clinical counseling, the legal system, law enforcement and more, and to academics who bring new research and data to the conversation, revealing patterns of abusive behaviors and statistical revelations about femicide. We've learned so much from engaging with these professionals and survivors and hopefully you have as well, and we're not stopping there. So, together with Jan Langbein, today, we take a look back at the highlights of the past three seasons and a look ahead at the fall lineup for Genesis the podcast. Hey Jan, welcome to the show. Thank you, I'm glad to be back, and here we are, the last episode of season three, and we're going to do some recap and as well as some looking ahead. But first I want to ask you a question, want to take a guess at the most downloaded episodes of Genesis the Podcast. Which episodes do you think more people have listened to than others?

Speaker 2:

I have to tell you I don't know whether it's just me, or I'm pretty sure I know the real answer to this, and that's when you spoke with Lundy Bancroft.

Speaker 1:

That's absolutely right. Lundy was on the show twice over the past few years and those conversations are, in fact, our most listened to episodes and they are still available in the library, so anybody listening today who hasn't heard them can go back and go back to 2023. And then earlier this year to hear what we talked with Lundy about in his episodes. We did talk all about how abuse impacts both mothers and their children, as well as many myths, misconceptions and outright lies that abusive men believe and try to convince others to believe.

Speaker 3:

Both episodes can be found in our library on your favorite streaming platform, but here's a clip from our most recent conversation Lies Abusive Men Tell Me and Themselves, with a message directly to women from Lundy himself the message I really want to get to women is you will not be able to heal to change his view of women by being good to him, and it doesn't have anything to do with how women have treated him and it's going to as you're saying. It's just going to suck you into getting manipulated and controlled by him. If he's got an issue with women, stay away from him, don't try to fix it.

Speaker 1:

Lundy's work is timeless, really, and he has extensive experience with family courts. He has also presented at the Conference on Crimes Against Women several times, and you've worked with Lundy for years, jan right.

Speaker 2:

Yes, no, I agree with you. I think his work is timeless and he has written so many books. I think I can say without hesitation in my three decades at Genesis, the one question that I hear the most, the biggest conundrum, the biggest enigma, the mystery that confuses survivors, is the title of his book. Why Does he Do that? Why does he do that? Clients come in and usually follow that question with well, what did I do wrong? What's wrong with me? Maybe if I tried harder or I cried less that I could make this better. And so this book, why Does he Do that? Is really a standard read for all our staff and most all of our clients as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so our clinical team for sure it's part of the Bible series, right that?

Speaker 4:

our clinical team uses even our residential team.

Speaker 1:

Why does he do that when dad hurts mom? Right, books like the Body Keeps the Score, which is another book that we've talked about on this show, and, yeah, so when you and I were talking about Lundy's work the other day, we believe that he asks the right question, absolutely. Why does he do that, as opposed to some of the other questions we get? You know the one that drives me crazy for it.

Speaker 2:

I think this book particularly why does he do that? I keep going back to that it helps give the understanding that the responsibility of abuse is on the abuser. It's not about that dinner was late or the house was dirty or you were looking at other men. His work really shows that abuse will not stop and still abuse or stop abusing. So that particular book, along with a lot of his work, really helps survivors and clinicians and people in this work. Look at it from another view.

Speaker 1:

Another view, yeah like, and the view that we are typically hearing about is well, why doesn't she just? Why didn't she just get out? Why doesn't she just leave? Why doesn't?

Speaker 2:

she just get out, why doesn't she just leave? And of course I could sit here for the next hour and give you a really long list of why she doesn't leave and so, but that's not the question that we should be asking. We should be asking why does he do that? And then I follow with the questions like what kind of coward beats his wife and what kind of coward beats his wife and what kind of monster beats the mother of his children, and what's wrong with people and who does he think he is? Those are great titles for books.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to write it as soon as I get a minute or two extra. So speaking of books, did you know that Lundy is also a novelist?

Speaker 2:

I didn't know that until I was prepping, and thank you for all your prep work. I didn't know until I was prepping for this podcast, but I have to tell you. I immediately went on to Amazon. The book that's called, that's entitled in custody, and it has like a subtitle, a Cary Green mystery right, which I hope there are a lot more of them. But I immediately went on Amazon and ordered in custody and plan to be binge reading this weekend. And the way he's written all his other books this one is planned to be binge reading this weekend. And the way he's written all his other books this one has got to be a winner as well.

Speaker 1:

So it's a good book. You've read it. I did read it, and it's a fictional work that explores the corruption in the family court system. It was released in 2023. And he even read an excerpt from that book on the show in his January 2023 episode. So if you want to hear that from the author himself, just go back to his episode. No More Excuses. I believe it's called in the January 2023 portion of our library.

Speaker 1:

We've covered a lot of other topics. Lundy, if you're listening, you're probably happy. We're going to stop gushing on you right this minute, because the other topics that we have covered extensively on the show are gaslighting and coercive control. So in a way, these two topics are part of every conversation we have on this show. But there are some very focused conversations about gaslighting and coercive control with experts, including the late Dr Evan Stark and Dr Christine Kociola. So, side note, dr Kociola is coming back to the show in the fall. She has co-authored a new book and she and her co-author, amy Palacca, will be here on the podcast in just a few weeks.

Speaker 1:

But on this topic, dr Evan Stark left us a legacy that demands we take up the charge about coercive control and domestic violence and keep moving forward. The charge about coercive control and domestic violence and keep moving forward. When he released what would be his final book in 2023, I had the honor to talk with him about his work. Here is a clip from that conversation where Dr Stark gives a very poignant example of coercive control and how domestic abuse is tangential to child abuse. And, just a heads up, this clip does discuss physical violence.

Speaker 4:

I had one case in New York where the mother was a prominent Wall Street broker and the father didn't want to leave any bruises so he would just beat the child. He would beat the son, the teenage son, when he wanted to get the wife to hold. The son was seeing a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist thought the boy had some kind of delusion. The husband was also seeing a psychiatrist because he didn't get along with his son and he was being medicated for manic depressive disorder. But the husband didn't lay a hand on the wife until she filed for a divorce and she had enough money to leave the thing and he tried to kill her with a barbell. Up to that point the son was a proxy. You see what I mean had enough money to leave the thing. Then he got a killer with a barbell. Up to that point, the son was a proxy. He lived. You see what I mean. Again, I know these are horrible stories, but this is what coercive control is.

Speaker 1:

These are topics we cannot talk about enough and, at a minimum, coercive control is finally getting some momentum and being included in some legislation in a few states as a form of domestic violence, and this is something, jan, you know quite a bit about. This topic of coercive control and the legislation Right, right, right.

Speaker 2:

Well, so Maria, you know the control is at the very center of abuse. Coercive control creates fear and bruises that the rest of us cannot see. It is isolation, it is damaging property, it's degradation, it's threats to harm or kill the individual or their friends or their families or relatives. It's compensatory control. It's monitoring and restricting the victim's movements and communication. And we have had discussions about can we codify that? Can we make that against the law?

Speaker 2:

And I know New Jersey has stepped up and basically has now recognized coercive control as a form of domestic violence. The governor there, governor Murphy, signed into law that would require courts to consider a pattern of coercive control when deciding whether or not to issue a restraining order. This is pretty amazing to issue a restraining order. This is pretty amazing because as people are getting restraining orders or protective orders, they were just looking at the incident that had just happened or a history of the physical violence. Now they're saying we can get into this court record, when trying to get a protective order, incidents of coercive control or the stalking, the fear, the other things that are a pattern of behavior that go along with the physical. We have talked about that in Austin. We have had discussions regarding similar legislation for here in Texas, it was not picked up this session's agenda this one coming up or last session's agenda. Not picked up this session's agenda, this one coming up, or last session's agenda because it really we looked at it through the lens of the fact that it puts the responsibility for the victims to prove something that's extremely hard to prove.

Speaker 2:

How do I prove that he isolated me? Well, you're a stay-at-home mom. Well, that is counterintuitive to what I would think is coercive control. You get to stay home and you have coffee with your friends and you play pickleball and read a book or whatever. How do you prove that he degrades you or that he threatens you? Usually it's behind closed doors, anyway. So, having to put one more thing on the victim to prove something that's, as I said, extremely hard to prove, we took that into consideration.

Speaker 2:

Many of these types of actions and behaviors are easily misconstrued. He must really love her, he wants to be with her every minute of the day. Well, how that sounds to me is one thing, but how it sounds to a survivor of domestic violence is completely, completely different. And the bottom line we can hardly get our cases to court for the physical abuse when there is physical evidence and police reports and the brilliant testimony from the local CEO of your domestic violence agency. So we can hardly get that in there, much less the coercive control. Would it be a bonus? Absolutely, I think that the more we can recognize that coercive control is part of a pattern of behavior, of domestic violence, gender-based violence, the better. But I know that here in Texas we've sort of stepped over that to see how it's working in other states and how they're going to prove it and how many people that will impact.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's definitely something to watch and see how it unfolds there in New Jersey and in other places. One of our recent guests on Genesis the Podcast was instrumental in bringing this particular piece of legislation in New Jersey to fruition. Courtney Gilmartin was on the show this spring to talk about both her personal experience with DV and her work to reform the understanding of domestic violence. She was quoted in an article by Brianna Kudisch for NewJerseycom as saying for many victims, coercive control can be defined as the torment that happens in between reportable events, whether that's violence or something else. You can find that article on NJcom. You know, maria.

Speaker 2:

I really agree with that. I remember a woman that was in the shelter and she was talking to a reporter there. They had asked her permission and she was willing to talk about it. She had a really, really badly bruised eye. He had punched her in the face and she said that this is the first time it's ever happened. And the truth of the matter is I didn't say anything then, but I knew her history and this guy was incredibly controlling, incredibly abusive emotionally, and for her, though, it was the first time he ever did it. She could point to something and say look what he does to me, but he would stand on her toes, get up near her and stand on her toes and scream in her face for hours, and that was the first time she recognized that it was abusive is when he finally had punched her in the face. So I believe that people don't and sometimes even the victims don't recognize the control that goes on in between the episodes of physical abuse, as you just mentioned.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that brings me back to the points you were making about getting protective orders and recognizing patterns of abuse. Can you get a protective order if there has not been physical violence but there has been a pattern of abuse? Let's say it's like stalking or something else?

Speaker 2:

Right. Well, to prove, stalking that is a pattern of abuse that is intended to cause fear. So, yes, you can do that for stalking. But as far as domestic violence, a protective order is that there has been a history of abuse, physical abuse, and there is potential of more. So to my knowledge, it would be very difficult without the stalking piece, which is written in differently in the code, to get a protective order with regards to and when I say merely coercive control, I don't mean that the way that sounds Right If there hasn't been physical abuse Without the physical abuse Right In the state of Texas, it would be difficult to get the protective order.

Speaker 2:

That's my understanding. That's my understanding, yeah.

Speaker 1:

That's so interesting and we have so many survivors here on the podcast. You just mentioned a survivor that was actually one of our survivors from the shelter at Genesis, but here on the show we highlight survivor stories very regularly. Over the years we've heard from survivors in their own voices and in their own words what happened to them and the impact that domestic violence has had on their lives and the lives of their children. One of those stories included in Genesis the podcast was survivor Stephanie Bond and like a lot of these cases, her story has many layers, because there was not only the domestic violence involved, but also mental illness, financial abuse and firearms. I want you to take a listen to Stephanie in her own words about just one of the many ways people responded to the violence that she experienced.

Speaker 5:

People would say to me well, he didn't mean to kill you and you know if he would, if he, or else he was a really bad aim, because if he meant to kill you, he would have shot you or killed you. And I take issue with comments like that because, again, a .45 caliber bullet, you cannot aim that at such close proximity and I think he had every intention of killing me.

Speaker 1:

Stephanie's story also reminds us of another recurring topic on this show the impact that firearms can have within abusive relationships. Jan, you and I both know Stephanie well and we also understand the dangers of firearms when abuse is present, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

You know, as extreme as Stephanie's story is, it's not unusual. We talked a minute ago about the entire foundation of an abuser's. Abuse is power and control and the victim is in the most danger when the perpetrator feels out of control. But a perpetrator can also feel his life is out of control with a loss of job, financial issues, bankruptcy, shame over something else. The fact that Stephanie's husband had so many firearms huge red flag. We know that in domestic violence relationships where there are firearms, victims are in 500 times more danger of dying. We have been working very hard here in Texas to increase awareness surrounding this danger. But I got to tell you, maria, it's an uphill battle.

Speaker 2:

For many years it was illegal, both the state and federal level, for someone who has been convicted of domestic violence or subject to a protective order to possess firearms. However, it is almost, if not completely, impossible to get judges to order perpetrators to relinquish those firearms. This actually took a terrible turn when the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, which is the court over Texas, louisiana and Mississippi the Fifth Circuit Court reversed a ruling and declared that perpetrators could keep their firearms. Now let's think about that. You want to give a dangerous criminal we already know he's a dangerous criminal. Because he's been convicted, you want to give him a firearm, and the case was actually reviewed. It was a case out of Tarrant County. A man named Rahimi was ordered as he should have been in Tarrant County to relinquish his firearms, but the Fifth Circuit said he didn't have to. So for over two years we sat around writing amicus briefs and held our breath as the Supreme Court reviewed the case and just this last June, june 21st, the Supreme Court issued the life-saving decision to reverse the Fifth Circuit's ruling the most dangerous ruling to allow domestic violence abusers to be armed, stating that abusers do not have the constitutional right. Convicted abusers do not have a constitutional right to own guns.

Speaker 2:

Now, while we celebrated that, unfortunately that just got us back to ground zero. I mean we're still struggling with judges on how to order perpetrators to relinquish their firearms or destroy those firearms or collect them, or even to get them to admit that they have firearms even to get them to admit that they have firearms. And when we go to different elected representatives around the state, I get many doors just shut in my face. We're not going to talk about that. The good voters of my county don't want me talking about guns, bottom line. When somebody says what do you say about trying to take people's guns away? And I basically say I'm not trying to take them away. They have a right to a firearm. Just don't beat your wife.

Speaker 1:

It's as simple as that. Don't be an abuser Right, because I mean, basically, you've surrendered your right to a lot of things, including owning firearms when you are involved in a domestic violence situation.

Speaker 2:

Well, that was right, except for Texas, mississippi and Louisiana during that period. Yes.

Speaker 1:

We're back to ground zero as far as I'm concerned and to your point, this is exactly what happened in Stephanie Bond's case as well is that the judge did say those firearms need to be removed and she could not find anyone to help her get them removed. To remove them, yes. And then, on top of all that, her husband's name was on the I guess the deed to the house or the mortgage, and therefore, because he was still technically on that document and living technically in that house, the guns could only be removed if he said so and he was incapacitated in a mental health hospital at the time. It was very, very complex situation, but it had all of these issues tied into one and it could have cost her her life.

Speaker 2:

Well, almost did, and I really encourage your listeners to go back and listen to that episode, because this woman almost died. It was just by the grace of God that she didn't the grace of God and the child that brought her a cell phone in the floor of that closet. It took her years to learn, to walk again, to heal and become what she is today, which is a tremendous advocate fighting the fight against domestic violence. So I'm so proud of Stephanie.

Speaker 1:

I am too. She's really done so much for other survivors and for her children and her family, bringing everyone together. It's a remarkable story and I hope that you will all go back and listen to it. There are so many conversations on this podcast that I absolutely walk away from just feeling like I learned so much. And every time I do, you know it comes back and it comes back in our work and moving forward with the work we do at Genesis. One of my absolute favorite conversations on the show was with Dr Judith Herman. Dr Herman and what was probably her most groundbreaking work. Trauma and recovery likely need no introduction, but take a listen to what she had to say about her latest work, truth and Repair, and exactly what that title means in the context of survivors of violence. So when you say truth, do you mean they want people to know the truth about what happened to them?

Speaker 6:

Exactly. They want the truth to be out there and they want the truth to be recognized. And they cared much more about the communities, the recognition and validation from the community, than necessarily a confession from the perpetrator from the community, than necessarily a confession from the perpetrator. Now, whether he confessed or not was not nearly as important to them as whether their families or their communities or the people that mattered to them recognized that, yes, this happened and it was wrong and it was harmful. So it wasn't just the facts of the case, but it was the fact that it was harmful and that it was wrong. They wanted the community to take the bystanders, basically to take sides, and say this never should have happened to you, you're not to blame, this was wrong and we will do what we need, what needs to be done to help you recover, what we need, what needs to be done to help you recover.

Speaker 2:

This is such an important episode. So, again, I hope people will go back and listen to this too. But survivors want to be believed, maria, and they want to be believed by their family. They want to be believed by police, by juries. I think that they equate being believed with justice and so many women just say I want justice and I don't know that they can always define that, that he goes to jail or she gets a divorce or whatever. But being believed is what all survivors that I've talked to want.

Speaker 2:

And there are only two crimes that I know of where victims struggle to be believed. One is domestic violence and the other is sexual assault. And I think there are a couple of reasons for that. One is there's this sort of cloud of accusation of false reporting. The statistics say that only between 2% and 5% of reports represent false reporting. Now, if you ask a group of police officers or out in the community and you ask them, how many people do you think falsely report a sexual assault, the numbers are like 50 to 60%, and the truth of the matter is that it's only about three to 5%, and of that three to 5%, some is just recantation. They just don't want to go through with it. They take the story back again and so those numbers are, and that doesn't necessarily mean that it was false reporting, that it didn't happen. It just means they don't want to go through it.

Speaker 1:

Part of that Exactly, and so it just begs the question for me of what does any person have to gain by falsely reporting a sexual assault or domestic violence? Besides the humiliation of the fact that these things happened to you? Why would you want to claim that? Well, I think you wouldn't.

Speaker 2:

You wouldn't.

Speaker 2:

You wouldn't want to why would you bare your soul, bare your body, bare choices that you had made and still walk away and be called a whore, or you drunk, or why did you wear that? And again the onus becomes on the victim to prove that there was a crime perpetrated against her. So the accusations of false reporting. That's one thing. Another thing is that there are preconceived ideas of what a victim would be thinking or what a victim would act like, and that's usually not the case. It's hardly ever the case, right? I think if she didn't want to be raped, she would be screaming and fighting and crying, right? But the truth of the matter is, anybody who has worked with victims of trauma know that your prefrontal cortex disengages and you are in fight, flight, freeze or appease, and so you can't imagine what you would do in a case like that, although people who haven't been in that situation think well, if it were me, I would.

Speaker 2:

But often her counterintuitive behavior lends others to think that she's lying. She's just lying, otherwise she would be screaming and you know yelling rape or that kind of thing. So that's another reason I think that you know it rape or that kind of thing. So that's another reason I think that you know so important to believe survivors. There's no one way that a victim will process the trauma, whether it's a flat affect or screaming or yelling, or has no memory. Often we, they just absolutely have no memory of the incident. She may not remember parts of the incident, like what he actually did or how he undressed her or how he attacked her, but she may remember the color of his phone case that he used to tape it. So we've heard that story before.

Speaker 2:

But I do think, as Judith Herman says, you know, survivors want to be believed and so, even in casual conversation, if you and I were having a conversation and you said my husband beat me, if I come up and say to you, oh my gosh, I can't even believe that he's such a nice guy, and I don't mean, I think you're a liar, but that's how it sounds to you, right, you know, and he's not a nice guy. He beat you last night. You know that kind of thing and you know he's not a nice guy.

Speaker 1:

He beat you last night. You know that kind of thing. And to your point, and to Dr Herman's point as well, it's all good and well for there to be a legal system that prosecutes and gives the perpetrator consequences in the form of, you know, punishment, prison sentence, fines, protective orders and so on, fines, protective orders and so on. But in the end, if my family doesn't believe me and my friends don't believe me or they just tell me I need to get on with my life, that is devastating.

Speaker 2:

It's devastating and it's re-victimizing the victim. To be real honest and I've heard that before where survivors or family might say you're still not over that, or just the way we casually ask questions or make comments, the way I would hear it is very different from the way someone trying to survive would hear that.

Speaker 1:

Exactly exactly. So there's all the survivor stories that we've had on the show have included some element of wanting to be believed or maybe not being believed, and it's important to listen to the stories of survivors in their own voices, because that's where we really find out what people need and what's going to make them feel healed, you know, to get through their trauma from these situations. Speaking of authors, so we've had quite a few authors on the show. I don't know if that's a coincidence or not, but another author who visited the show last year was Rachel Louise Snyder. Her latest work Women we Buried, women we Burned released in 2023, and details of her own trauma with child abuse and addiction and her own recovery. The author also offered some thoughts to those who ask why doesn't she just leave? There's that question again. I know it did come up.

Speaker 1:

It did come up in our conversation, which is a wonderful episode. Here's a clip from Rachel Louise Snyder talking about, or talking in response to why doesn't she just leave? It's embedded in the response to why doesn't she just leave.

Speaker 7:

It's embedded in the question why doesn't she just leave? The expectation is that love shouldn't or doesn't play a part in that relationship, and that's what makes domestic abuse so intractable, in fact, is because often you do love this person who is abusing you. You just want the abuse to stop. Right, there is a movement around the acknowledgement of that, I think today in the domestic violence community Like, okay, how do we support this victim? How can we make the abuse stop? They don't want the relationship to end, and the problem with seeing it as abuse separate from love is that it has this knock on effect with all of our systems. The police then think the victim is crazy. The judiciary then says oh well, you know, they dropped the charges because you know they want to stay together or whatever. You know it has this, our inability to kind of see a relationship more fully and see why somebody might want to stay beyond. Just, I don't know the financial aspects or the coercion, right, maybe they do actually love this person. They just want the abuse to stop.

Speaker 2:

So you're right, we've been talking about that, that that's not the question that society should be asking. Certainly we understand that he does it because it works asking certainly we understand that he does it because it works, he does it because he can and he does it because we as a society have not found the impetus for him to change his behavior. So if you think about it, a misdemeanor c, the penalty is the equivalent of a traffic ticket and the fine is usually less than f if he had been charged with urinating in public. So basically, if I can afford the fine, okay, if I can go and pay my traffic ticket, then it's green light to do it again.

Speaker 1:

And in this case the traffic ticket is beating his wife. Yes, it is. Or whatever the crime is, that could be a misdemeanor, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

And so we haven't landed on what is worse than beating your wife. So a fine's not it. Maybe a couple of days in jail maybe Maybe you get fired from your job, maybe, but it doesn't always change that behavior. But I really think that we need to have the answers as to why she stays, because again, people will ask me, just in my book club or going for a glass of wine or something they'll say you know, I really just don't get it. I just don't get it, and it is not just one reason. I mean, this gives me an opportunity for the next 30 minutes to say well, she stays because she hasn't got any place to go. And she stays because she doesn't have the money for a hotel and she's not allowed to have a credit card. She stays because the children she's afraid for them or he'll try to get custody of those kiddos. She'll stay because of her culture or her faith, or her safety.

Speaker 2:

You know there's a phrase, maria, and I don't know that you and I have talked about that on this podcast, but there's a phrase called the shark fin theory, and we find that women may feel safer as long as they can see that shark's fin in the water. They know where he is, but when you can no longer see that fin, you don't know where he's swimming around. So if I do leave, I do everything right. I get a protective order. I know he's going to come after me I do but I can't see him coming. So sometimes I've heard women and it is counterintuitive. That may sound, she may feel safer staying in it, but of course the number one reason is that leaving doesn't stop the violence. 75% of those women who are killed are killed after they've left or in the process of leaving. So you know there's no easy answer to this, but I think we definitely, as a society, need to start asking the right questions.

Speaker 1:

So two things just in response to things that you said. Number one safety planning, which is something we talk about all the time on this show and daily at Genesis Women's Shelter and Support. Safety planning is critical to leaving in a safe way, in a way that serves your best interest as a survivor, and you can learn about that on genesisshelterorg, our website. And the second thing is accountability. That's the other word of the day. So throughout this episode, I keep thinking about abusers need to be accountable for their actions, and we've talked about that very frequently on the show and I think you've said it multiple times on episodes where you've been on Genesis, the podcast.

Speaker 2:

We have to reach a point of accountability with these abusive partners and we just aren't there yet I think we're not there yet we do not provide services to men, men who batter or men who are battered. But the other agency in town, the family place, provides batters intervention and prevention and it's a counseling program that really you know they're, they are made to go, they're ordered to go and they sit for 12 or 24 weeks and talk about you know how it felt when he hit her, or you know how it felt when he hit her, or you know, maybe is there another way around it. There's peer counseling. There's a lot to it, but I don't know.

Speaker 1:

I think the jury's still out on how effective that really is Well, I know Lundy Bancroft, who we started off this show talking about. He doesn't think that it works. See, I've talked to Scott Hampton in the past on the podcast on crimes against women and he has done that work for years and he'll tell you it just doesn't work. Countless other professionals who do the work can see that the outcomes really are not great.

Speaker 2:

So what is the accountability? What do you have to do to want to change your behavior? Jordan Lawson, who's just brilliant.

Speaker 1:

I know Jordan.

Speaker 2:

Yes, you do. Jordan Lawson for your listeners is the chief residential officer, but a supervisor therapist by profession, right, and she talks about core beliefs of an abuser. She says that abusers have three core beliefs. A core belief is something you can't change my mind, Right, it's foundational. It's foundational. You could not change my mind about my love for my grandchildren. There's nothing you could say. You know, we could talk politics and we could have conversations and oh, maybe I never thought about it that way. But there are core beliefs that I have. I believe in baby Jesus and you couldn't talk me out of it. It's just a core belief. So, anyway, that defines the core belief.

Speaker 2:

But for an abuser, he has three. Number one an abuser's core belief is that he has the right to whatever he wants when he wants it. Entitlement, absolutely entitlement. Number two is it is her job to make it happen. If I want dinner on time at six, it is her responsibility to make that happen. If I want sex every night, or in this way or in this place, it's her responsibility to make that happen. And the third core belief, now, core belief is that he feels like he has the right to punish her if it doesn't happen. Is that he feels like he has the right to punish her if it doesn't happen. So I don't know how you sit around in 12 weeks and change those core beliefs, change a pattern of behavior that may have been going on his entire life. That sounds like years of therapy to me.

Speaker 2:

Is it?

Speaker 1:

therapy, and you'd have to be very committed to wanting to change it that's it too To acknowledging the issues in yourself. So you'd be very reflective, right and then committed to changing them.

Speaker 2:

And if it's possible In your opinion? Do you think abusers, who and of course they're way down the line by the time we interact, but do you feel like abusers have that self-awareness that they could just sit up and say you know what? I've been screwing this up the whole time? I would find that very unlikely. I would find it unlikely. I mean, I'm full of hope and I would hope they could. I would hope there are people who could see you know I'm hurting my wife and I'm ruining my life.

Speaker 1:

I think that there's a reinforcement of those three core beliefs oh, no doubt about it Throughout our society, no doubt about it. That then makes it very challenging, number one, to confront them in yourself and identify that, hey, this might be a problem because, like, look, there's no one else around me, my wife left me, my kids hate me and, you know, nobody wants to talk to me anymore. But the way that society functions here in the United States a lot of times it makes it seem like those are the norm, absolutely, absolutely. I can't say every man that I know behaves that way, because that wouldn't be true.

Speaker 2:

Right, Right. No, of course it's reinforced by society. It's reinforced by entertainment. You know, you look at true crime shows or just shows in the evening on the television. They are objectifying women. You could watch the news. We are in a place in our country, in our lives, that is such a misogynistic climate and I do want to talk about that, how that reinforces political or it's again entertainment, or it is the church you go to or whatever it is. This behavior is reinforced and until we as a society find the impetus for him to change his behavior, there's no reason for him to.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and those topics, you know that is part of our conversation every week on the show in some way shape or form, so it's all woven into conversations on Genesis, the podcast, and we go way back to September 2021. It doesn't sound like that long ago, but, man, that was three years ago. A lot has happened since then. So much has happened. We've taken a lot of steps forward as a country and we've taken some steps back, so we need to just keep our eye on the ball. We launched this show right after an already highly successful run of our sister show, the podcast on crimes against women, now entering its sixth season, which that show started in 2020. But if we go way back to September 2021, jan, do you remember who our very first guest was on Genesis? I?

Speaker 2:

do? I do because I was so excited. Leslie Morgan Steiner, yes, is an amazing person Before we talk about Leslie.

Speaker 1:

Let's listen to Leslie in a quick sound bite, because Leslie has something to say about every survivor being the expert in her own case.

Speaker 8:

We are the experts about the dangers that we face and we know our abusers really well. And if we can be empowered to leave, and to leave safely, I think that we know how to leave and there were several things that I did when I was leaving that, when I look back, it shows how I knew I was in so much danger, but also how I wanted to protect myself. The fact that I went to the police, that I got a restraining order immediately, that I served the restraining order, that I had it made public that I hired a lawyer, that I refused to be alone with them.

Speaker 8:

I took a lot of actions to take care of myself. That, I think, sent a very clear message to my ex-husband that this was really serious.

Speaker 2:

Leslie and I have had conversations about her theories that survivors are experts in their own care and yes, to some extent I absolutely agree with that. I think a survivor is best to know how to stay safe living with this perpetrator, when to duck, so to speak. But so many victims do not recognize what their partner is doing is abuse, might say, we argue, we might say he drinks, I might say I push his buttons, and so on and so forth, but not able to step back and see that pattern, that cycle of abuse. That's why I think this podcast is so important. We need to spread awareness on what is domestic abuse. What are the resources? Where is the help? It is a crime. It is against the law. What bystanders and upstanders can do about it?

Speaker 2:

So, yes, I want to empower every single survivor and really applaud her courage for living in what she lives in and hopefully getting out, which may even be harder, and hopefully getting out, which may even be harder. But I also feel that many do not know that there is help and there is hope, and that's what the Genesis message is all the time there is help and there is hope, and that is one call away. We don't tell somebody she has to leave. When she calls in on our helpline or texts in, we don't say you've got to get out of there. Helpline or texts in, we don't say you've got to get out of there. We can, you know, help her hopefully, be safe, help her understand what's the impact on her children. But until we can fill her pockets full of that information, I don't feel she can make an educated choice on what to do next, what those next steps are.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and Leslie's story in a lot of ways is it's like a lot of women's stories. She was in it for years, didn't really fully accept the fact that this, like what this was. This was domestic violence, and it had a lot of the elements that we talk about pretty regularly the isolation, the firearms, so on and so forth. If you missed that episode, it's still available in our library. Go back to September 2021 and look for Leslie Morgensteiner's Survivors Are the Experts. Her book Crazy Love is also available for purchase wherever you are in the world. I believe it's in several languages.

Speaker 2:

I think you're right. I think you're right, but you know, the first time I ever heard her was when I watched her TED Talk that is entitled Crazy Love, and I recommend it to everyone listening.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, If you don't have an hour to listen to the show, if you don't have a couple of hours to listen to the audio book, google Leslie Morgan Steiner and watch the TED Talk, because you will learn a lot.

Speaker 2:

It is so clear to me the insidious nature of that relationship, as you mentioned, the isolation, the course of control that we were talking about earlier, the escalation to violence, and she really validates the idea that domestic violence does not discriminate.

Speaker 1:

It could happen to anyone. Yes, yes, you know it can happen to any woman from any walk of life. And you know, in her case, she's a highly educated, professional woman who got in this relationship and couldn't get out. She did wind up finally escaping with her life and she did all the steps that people would, you know, think you would do in safety planning. Um, and I'm really pleased to tell you that Leslie Morgan Steiner is coming back to the show for season four, so you will hear her in September. I can't wait to bring her back to this audience and to this conversation. Wait to bring her back to this audience and to this conversation. We have made so much progress since we launched Genesis, the podcast, jan. There are other things we've made progress on as well. It's not just the show right. So many other things have happened at Genesis. What are your favorite moments from the past few years?

Speaker 2:

Oh, wow, that's a hard question about my favorite moments, because every day I get up and I find joy in something that an employee says or an accomplishment of a survivor or a program at Genesis. One of the things that we definitely you and I worked really hard to accomplish is the fact that Genesis non-residential was in a leasehold space that we had outgrown. It was kind of seedy. I remember Not enough parking. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2:

There weren't enough offices the former insurance office yoga studio, yeah, and there was no rhyme or reason to it. There'd be a lawyer next to a child therapist next to an accountant. So it was time and we were able to buy a piece of property not far from that location. We raised you and I together raised, you know, over $20 million to and I look at that, maria, as 20 million promises to women that say we will be there, you don't have to have left, you may have other residential resources, you may not need our shelter, but we are going to be there with that same counseling and advocacy and access to civil legal representation. So not only were we able to double the capacity since this podcast started, but we built it around a trauma-informed approach and we built it around an occupational therapeutic approach.

Speaker 2:

We've recognized, since this podcast started, the intersectionality between neurodiversity and domestic violence and we were seeing more and more particularly children coming into our shelter that were on the autism spectrum. So again, you layer that with the trauma of the abuse and mom's inability to take care of that child, and we and I talked to other agencies who said they also had seen an increase. Our answer to that was you know what? Let's put occupational therapy on site, let's teach that child you know how to deescalate, or that mom to how to deescalate, how to increase your core strength or how to communicate when you are nonverbal. So it has made a tremendous difference. We have it at shelter, we have a residential occupational therapist along with a sensory room, and at our non residential we have a sensory room and at our non-residential we have a sensory room and an occupational therapist on site there as well.

Speaker 1:

And way back over the past couple of years I believe in 2021 and 2022, we talked about occupational therapy on the podcast because we were so excited about the program and the pilot program that we did at Genesis back a couple of years ago that really started this whole thing and we were seeing such a positive outcomes Exactly.

Speaker 2:

We are so pleased at where it is right now and we still want to keep going and growing with that. Sure, we have recently hired a bilingual occupational therapist and she goes wherever the need is, but that was a rare find for us and that's the thing about. I've been at Genesis for over three decades and I didn't come in with some strategic master plan. We just look and we see okay, what are the needs, what are the gaps, who's not being served and how can we make a difference? The second thing that we've done since this podcast is started is in recognition that women of color are assaulted more often than white women.

Speaker 2:

We actually have gone into Southern Dallas, 75216 zip code, which has the largest number of incidents and the fewest resources, and this is an area where the demographics 52% are African American and 48% are Latin, and so we decided to go large and in charge right where the need is, and we have a non-residential center there. The work is needed and a lot of it is walk-in. I need help. Right now it's a little more emergent than our office over on Lucas, the new building, but the point being is between the new building and the new programming, and we just continue to look and say, okay, what's the next gap? What isn't happening? Who isn't being served?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So to your point. I mean, you actually do have a master strategic plan. I do now, you do now.

Speaker 2:

But I didn't come with one Right.

Speaker 1:

You didn't come with one, but we do have one now and included the founding of the National Training Center on Crimes Against Women, which we launched in 2023 when we opened the building, the $20 million building on Lucas Drive in Dallas. We talked about the National Training Center on the show last year because we were really excited about when we were getting ready to launch it, and I want to give people a sound bite that really sums up the purpose and programs of the center.

Speaker 2:

How can other people get involved? How can your listeners be a part of this? Well, what is the system within which you work? Is it faith community? Is it a hospital? Is it a lawyer's office? Is it? Do you know, your police chief? You ought to.

Speaker 2:

If you don't, you need to go introduce yourselves and say that this issue is important and it's impacting one out of every three women we pass, and this is a pandemic, actually an equal opportunity epidemic, as a matter of fact. So I think all listeners could stop and think and say oh, you know what? I'm the HR person for XYZ company. We don't have a domestic violence policy in place. I wonder if I could go and learn that at this training center. And, of course, the answer is yes. We will be listing out the things that we will be doing, but we absolutely are like send us your suggestions. What do you want to hear about? What do you want to learn more about? Is that a trauma-informed approach? Is that occupational therapy? We will help design training programs around what people let us know are the needs.

Speaker 1:

And Genesis is entering its own milestone in 2025, which I can't believe. We're more than halfway through this year to begin with. But here we come, 2025, for our 40th anniversary. Janice, you look back and ahead. What's on your mind as a leader in this space?

Speaker 2:

Well, I'm glad you asked that. I think we have come so far, but we have so much left to do. The Texas Council on Family Violence has statistics that show how many women are turned away from shelters because there are no available beds. Genesis has a 14-room shelter. We can house 40 people each evening, but that's not enough. We need more beds for survivors everywhere. I think we're going to have to address that. I think we need to address and have stronger gun laws and legislators.

Speaker 2:

Vote for people who will recognize that most violence doesn't start in the street. It starts in the home and spills out into the streets. But I have to tell you, Maria and you've known me for several years we're not going to stand down. We are not going to take a step back. We're not going to go into a time when women had no rights.

Speaker 2:

I was going down a TikTok hole the other day and there was an interview of somebody who felt very strongly about Make America Great Again and he had a hat on and a shirt on and the person, the interviewer, said when do you think that is? What was that time where America was great again? And he said the 1950s and I thought we barely had the right to vote. In the 50s. As a woman, I was not able to try in my marriage and I wasn't married in the 50s, but I was married in the 70s and at that time, as a woman, I could not travel abroad without my husband's permission. In my married lifetime, I couldn't have my own checking account or my own credit card without my husband's permission. In my married lifetime, I couldn't have my own checking account or my own credit card without my husband's permission. You know, we've only, out of the 250 years of America, we've only had the right to vote for 100 years, and so I don't think we can ever, ever stop thinking about that or take it for granted. You know, in 73, 1973, Roe v Wade was passed, guaranteeing a woman's right to choose until 2022, when it was overturned, turning those protections back to the states.

Speaker 2:

Now, whether you think it's a federal issue or a state issue, that's not the issue that we have so much hateful political dialogue going right now that is intended to reduce women's rights that we've worked so hard to accomplish. If they can reverse Roe v Wade, after what is that? 50 years, what's next? No IVF, no contraception, what else? I saw a clip of Vice President Kamala Harris, when she was interviewing Brett Kavanaugh for as a senator, interviewing Brett Kavanaugh for the Supreme Court, and she just said will you please tell me a law, a federal law, that governs what a man can do with his body? And you know, Kavanaugh hemmed and hawed and talked about medical procedures and she goes no, tell me about a law that governs a man's body. And of course there is none. There is not one Right. So why would we, as over half the voting population, dare to stand up against that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's so much chatter about having babies or not having babies, and if women don't have babies, then that means one thing, if they have babies.

Speaker 1:

That means they have to stay home and then we're in this other power cycle of babies. But I saw speaking of TikTok holes. I did see one the other day. That really made me think, and it might make you think or laugh too. It said people keep talking about how kamala harris has not herself given birth to a baby. She's a stepmom, right, which is which is a mom as far as I'm concerned, really it's none of my business. But um well, there's no president in the history of the united states of america who has given birth to a baby.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much.

Speaker 1:

So what is the big freaking?

Speaker 2:

deal here? I don't know, I don't know. One in particular, a senator who is on a ticket right now is saying that you know you ought to let. If you have the more children you have, you ought to have more voting power, although the parents would be in charge of how that child voted. So if you had your two sons you would get four votes in your house. But really, but I get three, I bet you'd still get one.

Speaker 1:

Do I even get?

Speaker 2:

one.

Speaker 4:

If you're lucky if you're lucky.

Speaker 2:

But if you look at it, men haven't had babies. Why should they get a vote? So if that's going to be the rule of the land, maybe just women with children vote. It works until it doesn't work anymore. It works until it doesn't work anymore. Now get me started. I mean we need to have this election quickly, because it is it's only July. We have several months to go.

Speaker 1:

It's hard, it's hard, it is hard. It's a tough environment, it really is, and especially for women. And if you don't think that doesn't trickle down to in my home, behind closed doors, that he can do whatever into the cafeteria, onto the sports field and so on and so forth. And so if you think it's not affecting the next generation, this horrible rhetoric that we hear and talk about each other, the way we slam women the minute they get the Democratic nomination, for the presidency of the United States.

Speaker 6:

She laughs too much. What's the matter with her? Yeah, she laughs too much.

Speaker 1:

She laughs too much she didn't give birth to a baby, Then, yeah, it affects everyone. Kids hear everything and they soak it all in Well.

Speaker 2:

I hate for the listeners to think that all I do is go down TikTok hauls. But there was another one that said, if you're going to criticize a woman running for office, that said, if you're going to criticize a woman running for office, she's not going to hear you, but your daughter will and your granddaughters will and your sister will, and that's the point, and that's the point.

Speaker 1:

That is the point, and it is internalized and I think that it's projected onto oneself either as the reason for it. So there's guilt and there's shame and embarrassment and, oh my God, I'm going to be next. This is the way men treat women. That's just the way that it is. I can expect to get married, have babies and then still get strangled or worse. They're listening and they're watching, yes, and so your point is well taken.

Speaker 1:

We have covered all of this and so many other issues related to domestic violence on the show, from grief to strangulation, traumatic brain injury, mass shootings and so much more, and I don't mean to gloss over these very important issues because they are all critical to understanding the experience of abuse. I encourage everyone to catch up on past episodes and if you have an idea for a topic, you can let us know by sending an email to podcast at genesisshelterorg. I want to leave our audience with what I think is a really compelling call to action from you, jan, as heard on Genesis the Podcast. Take a quick listen to a very brief portion of episode 21 from season two.

Speaker 2:

Genesis can't do it all on our own. We can't take care of enough people, we can't take enough phone calls. It's going to have to be communities looking each to the other and saying I'm scared for you and, by the way, there is help and there is hope. And if we have to codify all of that, well then, so be it. Watch out, we're on our way back to.

Speaker 1:

Austin. Jan, thanks for being here and for making Genesis the podcast possible.

Speaker 2:

No, this is my pleasure. This is so important, and thank you for hosting it.

Speaker 1:

Week after week, month after month, it is so important to me to keep this show going. We'll be back in a few weeks with a whole new season. You can always reach out to Genesis 24-7, by call or text 214-946-HELP 214-946-4357,. Or visit our website at genesisshelterorg. 2 1, 4, 9, 4, 6. Help 2, 1, 4, 9, 4, 6, 4, 3, 5, 7,. Or visit our website at Genesis shelterorg. Genesis, the podcast season four will launch September 9th. While we're away, catch up on past episodes and with our sister show, the podcast on crimes against women, and follow Genesis on social media for updates on everything happening in our community of support. Find us on Facebook and Instagram at Genesis Women's Shelter and on X at Genesis Shelter. Attention, spanish-speaking listeners Listen to the end of this podcast for information on how to reach a Spanish-speaking representative of Genesis.

Speaker 9:

Atención hispanohablantes Escucha este podcast hasta el final para recibir información de cómo comunicarse con el personal de Genesis en español.

Speaker 1:

If you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship. You can get help or give help at genesisshelterorg or by calling or texting our 24-7 Crisis Hotline Team at 214-946-HELP 214-946-4357. Thank you. Women and children escaping domestic violence are always needed. Learn more at genesisshelterorg slash donate. Thanks for joining us. I'm reminding you always that ending domestic violence begins when we believe her Genesis.

Speaker 9:

El podcast anuncia servicios bilingües disponibles en Genesis Women's Shelter, esupport. Si usted o una conocida está en una relación abusiva, puede recibir ayuda o dar ayuda a genesisshelterorg o por llamar o mandar mensaje de texto a nuestra línea de crisis de 24 horas al 214-946-4357. Servicios bilingües de Genesis incluyen mensajes de texto, text messages, calls, counseling, legal services, advice and more. Call us or send us a text for more information. Donations are always needed to support women or children escaping domestic violence. Learn more at our website, atesisshelterorg. Barra inclinada donate. Gracias por unirse con nosotros. Recuerden que el terminar la violencia doméstica empieza cuando creemos a la víctima. Thank you,