Genesis The Podcast
Genesis the Podcast is a new way to connect with Genesis Women’s Shelter and Support and expand your thinking about domestic violence and related issues that affect women. GTP is also a trusted source of information if you are in an abusive relationship and need safety, shelter or support. Listen every week for fresh content related to domestic violence, to connect with world-renown professionals, participate in exclusive events and training opportunities, and take action against domestic violence.
Genesis The Podcast is hosted by Maria MacMullin, Chief Impact Officer of Genesis Women's Shelter & Support and the Host of the Podcast on Crimes Against Women.
About Genesis Women's Shelter & Support - Located in Dallas, Texas, Genesis provides safety, shelter and support for women who have experienced domestic violence, and raises awareness regarding its cause, prevalence and impact. Learn more at GenesisShelter.org
Genesis The Podcast
Navigating the Stages of Change to Empower Domestic Violence Survivors and Service Providers
Uncover the profound journey of transformation faced by domestic violence survivors as we sit down with Ruth Guerreiro and Jordyn Lawson from Genesis Women's Shelter & Support. In this episode, we discuss how the transtheoretical model of change, a tool often used for weight loss and smoking cessation, can be a lifeline for those navigating the complexities of abuse. Discover the emotional and psychological stages survivors traverse, from the survival-focused pre-contemplation stage to the empowering action stage, and learn how understanding these stages can significantly enhance support strategies.
Ruth and Jordyn guide us through the intricate dynamics of these stages, emphasizing the non-linear path survivors often tread. By sharing relatable examples, like the challenges of adhering to a healthier diet, we illuminate the nuanced process of change that transcends typical setbacks and relapses. The discussion underscores the importance of meeting survivors where they are, recognizing that what might seem like regression could be a strategic decision for survival amidst limited and unsafe options.
This episode offers opportunities for survivors, service providers, and loved ones to both understand and apply the stages of change model to experiences of domestic violence. For those who want to learn more, the Stages of Change training can be scheduled at https://www.genesisshelter.org/get-involved/request-a-speaker/
Today we take a close look at the trans-theoretical model of change, or stages of change, through the lens of working with domestic violence survivors with Ruth Guerrero and Jordan Lawson. I'm Maria McMullin, and this is Genesis, the podcast. The trans-theoretical model of change was first published in 1977 by the late James Prochaska, professor of psychology at the University of Rhode Island. The model remains foundational to understanding human behavior and behavior modification and is applied largely to lifestyle changes that positively impact health outcomes, such as weight loss and smoking cessation, but the model is also applied to many other areas where changing behavior can benefit an individual, including survivors of domestic violence. Trans-theoretical simply means applying different theories to develop a process In this application. The trans-theoretical model of change does this by identifying five stages that impact behavior modification. These include pre-contemplative preparation, action and maintenance. In a 2019 National Institutes of Health publication titled Trans-Theoretical Model of Health Behavioral Change a systematic review, the authors indicate this model is one which states that changing a behavior is not a coincidence, but instead is a process and different people are in different stages of change and readiness. At Genesis, this model is among the guiding principles of our work with survivors of domestic violence.
Speaker 1:The experts in leading this work at Genesis include our guest today, ruth Guerrero, chief Clinical Officer, and Jordan Lawson, chief Residential Officer. Jordan and Ruth, welcome back to the show. Thanks, it's always so interesting to spend time with you and we were just having a pre-conversation about our conversation that we're going to have today about stages of change, and you mentioned the broccoli thing and I'm going to come back to that because I'm sure everyone wants to know what that is. You both work with thousands of women and children each year who are survivors of domestic violence and have established the best practices for that work through both your own experience and the foundational research of other experts in the field. One of the key tools is the trans-theoretical model of change, or, maybe a little easier to say, is the stages of change. So before we understand its application to Genesis clients, let's dive into what the model is and the specific stages.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the trans theoretical model of change or stages of change. It was initially created to really research and look at how do you, how does somebody break the habit or addiction of smoking. So it was really applied to the sensation of smoking and so it really looked at how does somebody create, how do you go through the process of actually creating change in a goal that you have. Since then it's been researched and applied to all kinds of different areas, right, ruth? I don't know that there's any sort of like goal that we're aware of that it hasn't already been applied to, but for sure could be applied to, right, right?
Speaker 3:right. So if you think about the stages of change in, just think of your own goal Right? So if your goal is to eat better or to exercise more, go to bed earlier, right, like this can be applied to any type of goal that we're talking about. So I'm going to use the example that Jordan and I both share, in that we want to eat better. That's always on the top of our mind, like, ok, I got to eat better, I got to eat less sugar, I got to eat more healthy. So you need to eat healthier. Yes, we need to eat healthier.
Speaker 3:So if I was in pre-contemplation stage, I would not have the goal to eat healthier, right, we wouldn't be thinking, oh, I need to do this, I need to change my behavior. What we would just be noticing is the effects of not eating healthy. So that might mean that I have less energy or that we don't fit our clothes as well as we would like to. Pre-contemplation you're not even thinking about it. You're experiencing the effects of it, for sure, but not necessarily identifying. I could do something about this. So then you get to. So that's stage one. Stage two then is contemplation, and that's when you're thinking about it. So, in our goal of eating healthier. Jordan and I are going to start thinking, oh, maybe I can eat less cookies or less donuts that come to the office every Wednesday. Maybe we're thinking, oh, I could give up, you know, three pieces of pie and maybe only one piece of pie at Thanksgiving, and I can start eating salads and you know I'm going to go to the store. These are just things that you're thinking of, you, haven't you?
Speaker 2:haven't made any decision, you haven't made a goal yet. Or maybe, instead of just thinking about what you could do, you're also just thinking about what's the impact of it, the problem. So in stage two, I might be thinking about what I could do, or I might just be thinking about, like my pants are getting real tight and I don't feel good, and for sure I'm connecting it to and I'm saying it's because I'm eating all of these things that my pants are getting tight, and so I'm really aware of the problem in two right yeah.
Speaker 3:And I'm thinking about the pros and cons to making a change, because now that I've recognized, okay, I can do something about this. But now I have to consider well, do I want to do something about this? Right, what are the pros of eating healthy? Now, I can fit my clothes better. Now I can have more energy. There are a lot of cons to eating healthy, right, like, maybe now I have to go shop somewhere else that has, that sells the healthy food, and I don't have to. You know, I can't go to my favorite fast food restaurant, or when I'm out with my friends, now I'm the only one that's going to be turning down a dessert.
Speaker 3:So stage three, then, is now you're moving from. Should I do this change? Should I not to? Ok, yes, I want to make a change, I want to eat healthily. And what am I going to do to prepare to make this change? So maybe I'm looking in on Pinterest for good recipes and healthy recipes and I'm telling myself, okay, so what's my plan the next time somebody brings in goodies to work and I don't want to have to eat? You know, I don't want to have to, like, be tempted, because I know that that's what I want. What am I going to tell myself so that I don't eat that extra cookie? Stage three is not making any changes. You're just preparing to make changes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always say that it's really important to recognize that when somebody is trying to go through the process of change, we're saying that they're going through three stages before where they're really not doing anything different. They're just're really not doing anything different, they're just moving forward towards doing something different and kind of the best example of this for me is you know, I've really gotten to where I'm like I'm going to eat better. I'm going to make this shopping list of all the vegetables I'm going to buy and all you know, based on this meal plan, of all these really healthy things I'm going to eat. I've gone to the grocery store. I've bought the broccoli. Here comes the broccoli. Okay, good, I was waiting for it. I brought. I bought the broccoli, I had the broccoli. I put it in that fresh drawer right in the fridge. I had the plan of what I was going to cook it for.
Speaker 2:But if you ever bought the broccoli and let the broccoli rot in that fresh drawer, never what, maria, you're better than us For absolute certain. On more than one occasion I've let the broccoli rot. Maybe my husband has said why do we keep frying broccoli? Because it keeps rotting in this drawer, right? So for me that's kind of the example of stage three of I bought the broccoli but it rotted in the drawer, so it's not actual change yet. Right, it's still the preparing for change, because then you move into stage four, which is the action step in the stages of change. And when four is when I would actually take the broccoli out of the drawer and cook it and eat it, in stage four I'm literally changing something. The action is really there, the behavioral change is really there because I'm eating it. I love when you talk about this, ruth, because you talk about how, in stage four, you're doing it, but there's still temptation, there's still a struggle.
Speaker 3:Right, it's not that. Oh, this is so easy. Right, change is not easy. And so I'm still tempted to eat that extra cookie or eat those gummy bears that are in my desk. But if I'm saying okay, I'm actively deciding to not eat that and to eat something healthy and to order the salad at the restaurant. I get to the restaurant, I open up the menu. I absolutely want to have those mashed potatoes or the mac and cheese.
Speaker 2:But if I so, so yes, in stage four, it is still that temptation, it's that internal battle that I'm still having the plan and the action and then in stage five is called the maintenance stage, and five is really where you've made this habitual, right? You're one of those people that eats healthy 80% of your life and 20% of your life. You let yourself sort of have a good thing, right? You're somebody that goes on vacation and you think about like oh, I had dessert for lunch and I'm going to have it for dinner, right, whereas I'm just eating everything on vacation. And then there's actually a sage sticks that we talk about a lot, and sage sticks would be relapse, that it's really common to sort of kind of go back. We think the example of eating is really important because, you know, in a second we obviously want to talk about this in regards to domestic violence.
Speaker 2:That's the work that we do, but we think it's really important for everyone to be able to relate to what's the process to make change, even something as if you will, simple as eating healthy. It's all of these steps, all of this prep, all of this internal dialogue and change that happens to actually make change. And then, if you lay on top of, or if you think about this in regards to something as big and consequential as domestic violence and everything that you know, changing my whole life, how much harder and complicated that might be when you're you're applying these five steps to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, I really appreciate that example. It's something that all of us can relate to, and probably at one time or another also, we're trying to eat healthier and wound up throwing away broccoli. So thank you for that. Now let's talk about this very same model through the lens of domestic violence.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in domestic violence we recognize that stage one, pre-contemplation, before thought about the problem. Is somebody who is experiencing domestic violence of course very upset about it, right, Experiencing the impact of it and not liking it? We think that's important because a lot of times if people are lacking empathy they maybe say that she asked for it or she chooses to say so. She must want it.
Speaker 2:But in stage one she is just really focused on surviving, so she's not calling it domestic violence. She's not saying that the behavior is his fault or her abuser's responsibility. She may be saying, well, it's because I was late or it's because I didn't do this, and so in stage one she's very much experiencing it, but she's not naming it as domestic violence and she's not yet identified what she might need to do to protect herself because he is going to continue to choose to be abusive. So stage two contemplation At this point, in the stages of change, she is calling it domestic violence.
Speaker 2:She is naming the problem. She's also probably naming the impact of the domestic violence. She can tell you that it's causing her to have anxiety and fear. She might be saying that she's got depression right, she might be able to talk about the isolation or the control, and so how she hasn't been able to work because she wasn't allowed to. So she can really name the problem and the impact of it, but she's not yet ready to do something different. She's just, she's in a space of really like calling the problem.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's important also to just point out that this is not necessarily that she is trying to decide is she gonna leave the relationship or is she gonna stay in the relationship? She can decide to stay in the relationship and still move through the stages of change. But, for example, in stage two she's deciding oh, okay, she's recognized. Okay, yes, there is abuse happening and it's not my fault. Maybe her decision is, or her choices, right is do I leave or do I stay? Or do I go get counseling or do I not? Do I make a police report or do I not?
Speaker 3:So there's really lots of different things that she can be thinking. But I want to make sure that we're clear when we're saying what changes she can make in the stages of change in domestic violence, we are not at all saying that what can she do to stop the abuse from happening? Right, she doesn't have any control over that and so even if she does all of her coping skills and all of her safety plans and she calls the police, even if she leaves like the abuser still is going to continue abusing. So I just wanted to clarify, before we keep going, that stage two, when she's thinking about what she can do to change Jordan is not saying what she can do to change the abuse from happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's whatever goal she's wanting to change in the place that she's at right. Thank you, ruth. That's really important to point out too, especially because she is trying to identify what she has control over, changing Cause there's a lot of things she may want to change, but she doesn't have control over it. She doesn't have control over making him stop. She doesn't have control over the court system doing what it should do, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and also when she's thinking about those pros and cons. In stage two of contemplation those pros and cons might not be a lot of things she can control, because what's the con of telling someone that abuse is happening? Oh well, maybe there's a threat that he said if you tell anyone, I will X, y, z, and so sure she could make that decision. But she's going to look not just at what's the possible good consequence but what's the negative consequence that could happen. Yeah, absolutely right.
Speaker 2:Because, again, if she is sort of contemplating, should I leave or not, well, what's the pro of leaving? Maybe there is this idea that I'll be safer, but you and I know that that's not necessarily true, because the con of leaving is she's 75 times more likely to be seriously injured or murdered after leaving. After leaving is the most dangerous time for her. So she's really even on that idea. She's really trying to play with which one should I, which one should I do, because which consequences might be less detrimental to me, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So let's say that she is. She is playing with those pros and cons, she moves forward in her sort of decision of I think I want to try this thing. So she moves into stage three or the preparation stage. So this would be a time where she would be maybe doing a lot of research or a lot of looking into what are agencies that could support her, or she's asking family and friends for help or information, or she's really gathering resources. Those could be external resources, like I said, help with different benefits or different options, legal options, case management often like housing or medical needs or things like that or it could be internal resources. She's gathering up coping skills. She's gathering up safety planning, information and things that she could do Right, and then she may move forward into stage four.
Speaker 3:Wait before you get to four. I love what you always say, jordan, about her kind of appearing frantic in stage three.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. So in our experience, clients who are in stage two or three can really appear very overwhelmed, very scared, very frantic maybe even a word that we don't love. But we have heard, in regards to victims of domestic violence, hysterical. We know they're not hysterical, that is not what they are, but that may be how somebody else experiences her because she's so aware of the danger. It's kind of this idea of I never thought he would do this. And now that I have accepted and understand that he is doing this on purpose, he is choosing to be abusive. Now I'm absolutely terrified that anything could happen. Any danger is possible. He's capable of anything like murdering me and at the same time that her fear is at an all-time high, or her what if he does this? Is at an all-time high. She's still disconnected from what she could do or what she's in control of.
Speaker 2:To make things different, one of the definitions of domestic violence is the systematic diminishment of a woman in her home, so that disempowerment that's happened. It really leaves her in a place of very much being aware of what the problem is and not feeling empowered to do something about that. Again, we're saying that very carefully because when we say do something we're not saying stop the abuse. We're talking about other things that she could do to increase her safety or to create changes or something there and that can be important for friends or family or helping professionals that are working with her. Because in that franticness sometimes people will think that she is demanding or that she's a difficult client, or when really she's just terrified and she's sort of trying to grapple with anything, she's trying to reach for anything that could give her some security and some sense of safety.
Speaker 1:So while we're going through these stages right, we're not really consciously aware at that time that we're going through a stage. We don't know that we're living in a problem. That doesn't mean we're always pre-contemplating.
Speaker 3:Well, I would say that once you know about the stages of change, I think then you do have some insight. And if you pause right and look at yourself like, ok, actually, what's happening here? Like nothing's changing, oh, that's because I'm not changing what stage of change I'm in. But I do. I do think that you're right, maria, and like all of us are going through different stages of change and we're going to get to this later. But it's not this linear like, oh, you go one, two, three, four, five and you're done. Right, it is a process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I do think you're right that she's not consciously making choices to move forward in the stages of change, right, no, right, right. So that's why we have found and of course we'll get more clearly into this too but that's why we have found that it's so important, particularly for professionals, to understand this, so that they can really help her develop that insight into what stage she's in and what it would take to move to the next step.
Speaker 1:That's kind of where I was going with the idea, because I thought, well, this is a really good tool for reflection because by the time she does take an action step and maybe show up at Genesis If by the time she does take an action step and maybe show up at Genesis, the counselor would know about the stages of change and be able to kind of walk it back a little bit and see where she's, what's been happening with her for the past couple of weeks or months.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know the goal at Genesis. I will tell you, Ruth, I know you agree because we talk about this all the time Majority of clients who come to Genesis come to Genesis in probably stage one or stage two, and so our goal is to support her in moving forward into stage three or stage four. Of course, stage five, Right, but there so the what we're talking about, in in understanding what stage and how they present what they look like, what their behaviors are. If a professional understands what stage they're in, then the professional changes their approach to the client, their intervention to the client, the literal language that they use or don't use to the client, based on, you know, kind of specifically for that stage. And in doing that, then it's really supporting her in this way that increases her insight and helps her understand where she's at and what she needs to do next in this sort of process, which brings us to stage four.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so stage four would be the action stage, and this is the stage in which she's applying action or behavioral change to the goal that she has. Ruth said it and we just can't emphasize it enough Action does not mean she's leaving it, or it doesn't only mean that she's leaving the abusive relationship. That could be something that's a goal for some clients, but it's just not for all of our clients. It's just not. It's not safe right, and so it could be. Her goal may be to increase her safety planning and her use of her safety plan.
Speaker 2:And so in stage four, the action stage, she's applying her safety plan. She's doing the things that she, that her and her counselor, her and her advocate identified as a part of her safety plan. It could be increasing her coping. She's dealing with emotional abuse and that's really upsetting, and so she wants to be able to use coping strategies and distraction techniques to sort of manage her reactions and take care of herself through that. And so in stage four, she's using those coping strategies. She's not just talking about what if I journaled or what if I did this, she's doing it in those really emotional moments.
Speaker 3:Something I love about stage four is that she also recognizes this is not her fault at all, she's not taking any blame in when the abuse happens and being able to recognize when the abuse is happening. She's identifying that, she's identifying the escalation in the abuse and she can see when her abusive partner is starting to escalate even more with those abusive tactics. And therefore now she has more insight into doing the safety plan, because now she is motivated to do it and now recognizes when she can do that.
Speaker 2:And arguably the safety plan is more effective because, instead of trying to do certain things to make him happy so he won't be abusive, now she's very aware that, like no, this abuse is occurring because he chooses to, and so my focus is going to be on when he does this. I'm going to take care of myself or protect myself by doing A, B, C or D.
Speaker 3:Right. So now she's feeling more empowered, she's not joining in on the cycle of violence. Right when he's going through the cycle she can identify and I love what you just said that it's more impactful and we love this as professionals in stage four because then she is definitely open to all of the ideas and all of the different you know, ability to do some processing on her feelings and her thoughts, without that feeling that she needs to protect him or that she needs to minimize him to survive and minimize the abuse to survive.
Speaker 2:And lastly, stage five, the maintenance stage. This is usually when a client has terminated session. She's sort of met her goals in therapy or in advocacy or in occupational therapy. She's moved forward and she's continuing to utilize those techniques and those strategies. So, unfortunately, as we've talked about I don't know how many times on this podcast, domestic violence can continue after leaving for years, and so it means she's just maintaining the use of her safety plan, maintaining the use of her insight regarding the cycle of violence, maintaining the use of her coping strategies and sort of applying those things to her everyday life to take care of herself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, counseling and services for domestic violence. We're not ending when the abuse ends. Right, we would be seeing them for a very long time, for forever, but instead it's helping her learn those skills to be able to manage it. Jordan talks about the whack-a-mole game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, so you know. Again, in our experience, we in hearing clients who take certain steps to change, but the abuse continues. It's like playing a being on a whack-a-mole game constantly. I don't know if you've ever played whack-a-mole Maria Right.
Speaker 2:I took a picture of my sons playing whack-a-mole game one time because I've used this metaphor so much. I just was like here's this thing. So you stand over the game, you usually are very focused because you are waiting for that mole to pop up, and then you've got that mallet in your hand, ready to the mole as soon as he pops up. So our clients, a lot of times in stage four, are living their lives hovered over this game, if you will, metaphorically, all of their energy, all of their focus is really on him, just waiting for him to pop up. Because when he pops up it causes disruption, it causes problems, and so she's ready to either try to minimize those or she's ready to try to deal with them.
Speaker 2:Right stage five, that maintenance would be her understanding of. I actually have the ability to go play a different game, to go do something else. I don't have to hover over this board, not all of my energy has to be here, because I have the skills and the tools which in this metaphor, is the mallet that when he does pop up, I can then direct my attention to what's going on, kind of deal, and manage the impact of what he's doing, and then I can go back to this different way of living, and all of that's created through that insight building and through that sort of skills building that they're doing. And again, like we said earlier, how we're approaching those conversations, how we're giving that education or that information, is really determined by the assessment of where she's at in the stages of change.
Speaker 3:Well. So I think now is a good time to say, right when we teach our staff or when we're training other professionals about the stages of change, we do really encourage them to recognize in every interaction which stage she's in. Because, just like Jordan is saying, that is going to inform how you interact with her. If I'm thinking in my head, oh, she's stage four, she's moving, she's making actions, she's, you know, taking steps towards whatever the goal is, and so I'm kind of there like, oh, you're doing so, well, you know, and kind of maybe even pushing, and have you thought about this and what about this? But actually she's in stage two, she's gonna pull back. I'm not gonna be successful at all because now she's, she's not there yet, she's not ready.
Speaker 3:So in counseling, in the counseling world, we always talk about meeting her where she's at. That cannot be more truer than it is for the stages of change. If we meet her in whatever stage she's in, that's how we're gonna help her make progress and her make insight. It does no good for her if I just tell her it's not your fault. But when she can decide and she says, oh, it's not my fault that he's doing this, that's where the power comes in. The change.
Speaker 1:So what is the application of the stages of change model at Genesis?
Speaker 3:It's a great question. We love that question. We use it all of the time. So we train our staff, of course, right, just like we're saying, to be able to identify what stage she's in. We use it in supervision all of the time.
Speaker 3:So we would both say that the stages of change is what has made us the best at being trauma informed and being able to understand. It takes away any frustration that you might have when working with a client, because if you are giving her all of these options for example, right, you're an advocate, you're giving lots of resources and she seems like, okay, yes, and she's writing them down and the homework is that she's going to call those resources or she's going to reach out and fill out applications, and then she comes back the next meeting and she hasn't done any of that. It would be normal and natural for the advocate to then feel really frustrated. Well, why didn't you call? You said you were going to call them. Why didn't you fill out this application?
Speaker 3:But if the advocate can recognize, oh, she must be in stage one or stage two, not stage four then the advocate is now able to say, oh, I understand, there's lots of barriers. Let's talk about those barriers? What was it that got in the way of you being able to do that? And now we can actually make progress.
Speaker 2:I love that you're saying the frustration piece of this, because when we do this presentation we do sort of focus on that a lot, because in the you know 13 plus years that you and I've been doing this that's what we hear a lot in supervision when counselors or advocates or OTs come to us with questions about clients, it's usually with this, a lot of care and a lot of maybe concern for her safety, but a lot of intention of how do I help her? Why is what I'm doing not working, if you will, and a lot of times what, what Ruth and I will notice is that, whereas that frustration is coming from a place of care, it's just not helpful. It's just not because the truth is is she's not ready for the interventions that the advocate or the counselor are trying to apply, and so they're working in a higher stage than she's ready for. When you sort of back up and you give her some space to just be in that stage or understand what that's like or develop insight or anything, she will naturally start to move forward.
Speaker 2:Kind of a strong example of this, if I'm going to put myself on blast a little bit, is I had a client that I was having a really hard time with and I always think of that Jerry Maguire movie of like help me, help you, help you know kind of thing of she was really struggling with the counseling process for multiple reasons. She was having to come to counseling, but really struggling with being vulnerable and talking about things. She didn't want to talk about them because she didn't want to feel bad talking about negative memories. That seems understandable, right? Yeah, sure, but at the same time, and not talking about them, she was very much experiencing the symptoms of trauma and the disruption of trauma symptoms, and so I was kind of pushing, I was trying to be in a stage three or a stage four, in that I was telling her that she should do this or she has to use her coping skills. Or did you do that strategy that we talked about? Okay, why didn't you do that strategy? Right, just like really bad counseling, if I'm being honest with you, maria. And one week it just came to this place where my supervisor really encouraged me to like put, take the foot off the gas, just let her be and see what it is.
Speaker 2:And so it might sound a little bit strange to say what we did is we turned on a cooking show, the show chopped. We turned it on in our session. She was exhausted, she was working really hard, and so we said what if we just focused on self care and coping? One of your coping skills is watching cooking shows. Let's watch a cooking show together. And so we just sat in the session watching Chopped on YouTube in my office.
Speaker 2:But during the show she started to say things about the contestants feeling judged, that they worked so hard, they created this, they got this education. They, you know, did all this, and people don't even think about that. They just judge them for this one thing. That's true. And then she talked about what it would be like to have all of these people tell you whether or not you're good or you're bad, or you're good at this or you're.
Speaker 2:And what I'm recognizing in the moment, of course, is that she's processing the trauma of abuse.
Speaker 2:She's processing the control and the manipulation and the verbal abuse of being put down and being insulted by an abuser. But she's also processing the experience of being afraid of telling people she is experiencing abuse because she's afraid of being judged by those around her. And so it's in backing off and not trying to approach it in this very like direct, pushy way that she actually really did open up and progress started to happen. And so it's an example of like, by, by being in the stages of of, by noticing the stages of change, what I learned in that is in the next sessions, I'm going to ask questions differently, I'm going to be more general in my approach, I'm going to be less direct. I'm not going to say have you tried this or you should do this, because she's not there yet. And again, by changing my approach, it then gave her space to be, to understand and to develop insight, and she actually started to then contemplate doing something different, and then she started thinking about how she might do it differently, and then she started actually doing it differently.
Speaker 3:Right. I love that example because it is such a clear example of how recognizing what stage she's in Of really bad counseling versus okay, counseling no, no.
Speaker 3:Once you recognize what stage she was in, then you made the progress right. So we do a lot of, we talk a lot about the stages of change, maria, to a lot of different professionals and even, of course, at Genesis, to all of our staff, and something that we hear a lot is but I have deadlines and I have to get this in and I have, like, I have to do my job. And here I say like, absolutely, we're not saying that you back up to the point where, oh, just whenever you're ready, come and talk to me. If you're a counselor, you can say that, but not if you're an attorney, right, you have deadlines, you have to get in, and we always have safety as the number one conversation. And so if a client is stage one, she's talking about how, oh well, he promised me he's never going to hurt me again and you know he's not abusive and I don't know why CPS is making me come here, but he promised me it's never going to happen.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, I can join with her in that hope that he's going to change. And I get to say I have to talk to you, I have to tell you I'm concerned for your safety, right, I'm not going to say, oh girl, you don't know what you're talking about, he's going to hit you again, or like that's pushing right. But being able to say, you know, I hope that that's true, that he never hurts you again and let's make a safety plan for worst case scenario, for last resort, just in case he were to. So you still get to have that agenda of whatever your need is that, you, that you have to complete as the professional. Um, and for us at Genesis it's always going to be. We want to still do safety planning, no matter what state she's in. But it is the verbiage that you're using, it's the way you say it, the way you talk about it.
Speaker 2:Or even family and friends, right, ruth? I know we've both experienced for family and friends of somebody. You know they're really worried about her and so they've tried to say everything they can to get her to do something different again out of that fear and that concern for her. And, if anything, what they're experiencing is that it's just pushing her away further, right, putting up more guards and blocks, and so you know we, you know they'll come and say well, you know, I keep telling her this and she keeps saying that she loves him. And so we'll say, okay, well, why don't you just listen to why she loves him? Ask her what is it that you love him? What was your first date? Like? What was this?
Speaker 2:Because what Ruth and I have definitely experienced is when you, she knows. Like what was this? Because what Ruth and I have definitely experienced is when you, she knows like she, she's not um, she's denying this thing that's going on out of survival and out of protection, but she's not dumb, of course, right. And so when she will have this space to process and talk about you know, for example, she may say our first date was a picnic and it was the most, it was the best date ever and it was so romantic. If you give her long enough to talk about, she might say well, actually he forgot a blanket and we sat on the grass and there were ants or you know, and when women ran by exercising he stared at all of them and it wasn't that romantic. Like she'll start to sort of add that butt in and have space to really think about that butt.
Speaker 2:But when you push somebody and they don't have the ability to just be real and true about the whole complexity of it, they're going to put guards up and then they're going to sort of back away and you're not going to have the chance, like Ruth said, to say yeah, I hear you and also I'm scared for you. Can we just talk about safety, just in case? If I, if I have that openness, then of course what we're talking about is an open door for her hearing the safety plan or the. Would you be considered or be willing to consider calling a shelter if it got to this scary place?
Speaker 1:So everything we've talked about so far is about progression, progressing through the stages of change. What happens when there's regression, especially in a situation where there may be safety concerns?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's imperative for everyone who's listening to this to know is there will be. Like you said, ruth. It would be really nice if today I woke up and said oh gosh, these pants don't fit anymore. Oh, it's because I'm eating too much chocolate. I'm going to eat only broccoli. I only eat broccoli. I lose 50 pounds.
Speaker 1:I'm great that would be so nice.
Speaker 2:It. Eat broccoli, I lose 50 pounds. I'm great, like that would be so nice. It's just not how life works and, if we're being honest and if we're really thinking about ourselves and any goal that we've really tried to work on our lives, we've never tried to change something without some regression or being a part of it.
Speaker 2:It's a human thing, right? Human Right? And again, just for the sake of empathy building, we would ask you to really think about in, in regards to domestic violence, the complexity of what it would need to change or is going to change. And so it means a lot of loss. It means the loss of hopes and dreams for the future. It means some really hard truths, having to be um, accepted and acknowledged. Right it's. It's just a lot heavier than eating healthy.
Speaker 3:To be blunt with you, Well, and also it might look like regression or relapse, but really what it is, it's her safety plan or it's her coping skill, right. So if the friends and family are thinking, oh well, she's, you know she's talking to him again, so she must have gone back in her in what she was saying that she didn't want to be with him, well, let's pause and find out. Is she talking to him because she wants to get back together? Or probably it's because he's told her that you know, if you don't answer the phone call, then I'm going to show up at your house. Or you know, if they have children together, court orders are going to tell her she has to stay in contact with him. And maybe she recognizes well, if I don't, if I don't answer his phone calls or I don't answer his text messages, then he's going to escalate.
Speaker 3:Maybe there's threats that have been said. And so just to really understand, like relapse really isn't a thing in domestic violence, because in like the addiction world, right, or smoking cessation, relapse in the stages of change is all about the client then making the decision to go back. But in domestic violence she doesn't have control if he is abusing her or not, and so she now doesn't have good choices to choose from. Right. There's two choices and they're both terrible choices. Do I not answer the text message and know then that he's going to start calling me incessantly? Or do I answer the text message and know then that he's going to yell and scream at me, you know, and verbally abuse me on the text messages? Those aren't good answers, those aren't good choices, but she has to make one of them. So I just think, talking about relapse and regression, it doesn't necessarily always mean that she's regressing. It might mean that she's coping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are, those are. There's a lot of meaning that comes with those two words, so I appreciate your sort of pointing out of like let's be careful of what relapse or regress, because unfortunately there could be some shame or negative connotation that comes with that, right, yeah, what we do experience, though, ruth right, is that clients may be in stage two one week in session and they might be in stage three the next week in one session, but then when they come back to the next session, they might be in stage one again. And, to your point, that's not bad. That's not that she's doing something wrong or she's choosing to go backwards to an unhealthy thing. It just may be the complexity of the situation she's in and where she's at in. It just may be the complexity of the situation she's in and where she's at in, contemplating or deciding what she wants to do or how she's choosing to survive, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I see the honeymoon phase. That's what I was going to say.
Speaker 2:Yes, I see this with the cycle of violence Like. I have clients that I've met with who you know, especially right after a violent episode, she might be very much like nope, I want something different. And so I'm stage three, and we're talking about pros and cons, ideas of what to do. Have you tried this? Would you be willing to try this? Here are these resources, and then in the next couple of weeks, the honeymoon stage is really there, in that he's calling her and apologizing and he's saying it'll never happen again.
Speaker 2:He's giving her this manipulative hope that things could be okay in the future, and because she's afraid of all the things she might lose, then she's really going back in the stages of change Again, back not being a negative word here, but just being a directional word Back in the stages of change to a two or a one, because she's really hopeful that maybe she doesn't have to lose all of this. And she can't. Things can be okay, and so, again, there's not judgment in where she's at in the stage of change. You do this brilliantly when you talk about that. There's no good stage or bad stage, they're just all stages. And so we don't apply. And you were talking about with frustration, like when you truly understand stages of change. There's's no reaction. There's no reaction emotionally to where she's at in the stage. You just go okay, so she's here. So then I had changed my approach, my language, my intervention based on that and I go here.
Speaker 3:Right, because for myself, right, eating healthy. You know, I wake up in the morning, I'm super committed, I'm going to do better. I eat a salad for lunch and then, by two, three o'clock, I'm eating a chocolate bar, because now it's the after. That doesn't mean something is wrong with me, right. It just is it takes time to. So if it's not bad for me to go backwards in the stages of change about eating healthy, how, like? How much harder is it to make that change? To end a relationship or to start recognizing that he's abusive or that I'm with an abusive partner that I chose for my children's dad?
Speaker 2:Right, like, there's just so much grief that goes in there, yeah, Someday I'm going to need somebody to go back through all these episodes that we've done. Maria, and just like tally, how many times we've used the word complex or complicated, because it just can't be said enough. Again, eating healthy is kind of simple and yet it's really hard to change and do. For a lot of us it's complicated and it is absolutely spider webbed with different complexities because of the things she doesn't have control over, because of the things he's intentionally doing, because of the things that the court is requiring her to do in custody orders. There's just a lot in domestic violence specifically to consider when you're kind of looking at not only what stage is she in, but then what change is it that we're really expecting her to make?
Speaker 1:yeah, but I think you you bring up a lot of really good, important points for people to think about when they think about domestic violence, before they say the words. Why doesn't she just leave? Because it's complicated, because there's so many layers of what's happening to her. Now there are some people who suggest a sixth stage of change, which is termination. What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 3:Okay, so I did some research about this. Right, I was looking up because we don't use that stage. So termination from from my research talks about how that is where you no longer are tempted. Right, it's like you have fully integrated that lifestyle, that change, into your lifestyle. That would be I never eat any more candy and chocolate, and it's not a thing that I do. I've been thinking about how that is related to domestic violence, because the problem is the post separation abuse. The problem is is that there's always going to be abuse happening from that abuser. So can she get to the point where she never is impacted by the abuse? I don't think so. Like it always is going to hurt when someone calls you a name.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm thinking not only just post-separational abuse. Let's talk about the times, cause we do have some clients who will end a relationship with abuser and because they don't have children or because he doesn't really want to be involved with the children, they can sort of move on and he doesn't have there's not ongoing contact, right, but the impact, right. So the way in which, how she experienced relational trauma, how it impacts her future relationships, how it changes her in her future relationships, it's hard to really understand or think about that with a sixth stage, like you're saying. So I don't want to say that it's not a thing, but it feels really. It feels like it is something that I wonder if it's really applicable due to domestic violence right.
Speaker 2:So actually, to be really honest with you, I have a client who saw several years ago. She divorced her husband, she used her safety plan. We moved forward in the stages of change and so we terminated counseling. Right, she was moving forward. I heard from her a couple of months ago that her daughter had recently gotten engaged and she was going to have a wedding for her daughter soon. She hadn't heard from her abuser in years and then all of a sudden, because of this wedding popping up, now he's emailing her and the email is full of manipulation, but it's also full of accusations, it's full of demands, it's full of emotional abuse. So, to your point, Ruth, I think it's really hard, because maybe you could have said this years ago. But here we are again where there's interaction and there's abuse coming from him and of course, it's having an impact on her.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and she doesn't have control over that.
Speaker 1:Right. There are some criticisms of the model, suggesting that the stages are too distinct to capture the complexity of human behavior, or the complexity of domestic violence for that matter, and the idea of a change spectrum has been put forth with these stages included. What are your thoughts about the spectrum of change for survivor of domestic violence?
Speaker 2:Honestly, my reaction to it is the thing that I love about Genesis is not only our ability to, but our commitment to, individualizing our services based on the human that's sitting in front of us right, that we want to have a spectrum to everything that we do so that we can really identify and understand the unique needs of the person in front of us and really change our approach, change our, offer new things like based on this individualized person's needs or goals or things like that. And so my thought is that that's the way we do it, and you can get really argumentative on the word spectrum versus five stages, but I do think that in the way that we talk about this, ruth, and that we train it on this and, most importantly, the way we apply it at Genesis, I think we are talking about having an understanding of movement so spectrum right and having an understanding of complexity and having a lot of openness to assessing the individual in front of you. So I think we might be, I think we're doing what it is.
Speaker 1:I also think those spectrum is kind of a um, different levels of let's, let's use action, let's use the stage of action. So there can be small steps, baby steps, towards that are actions that can be towards a goal, and then there can be really large leaps, you know, towards making progress.
Speaker 3:So that's what I was going to say is that I think that we do use it because we'll say things like oh, she's in like 2.5, right, like we're already saying like well, she's, you know, or she's vacillating between one and two, recognizing, like you can, there is that fluidity of kind of going back and forth um, or you know, one step forward and then maybe a little bit back, and then to your point, maybe. Then she comes in and she's making this big, huge change, but also, I think, of the stages of change and like the spectrum of changing in regards to different goals.
Speaker 3:That's what I was going to say Maybe her goal is that I'm going to go to counseling and she is in counseling every single week and she's engaging in the trauma processing and she calls if she has to miss right. She's super participating. She's going to be in stage four in that. But when it comes to leaving the abusive partner, maybe she's in stage two because he is so manipulative and he has used so many threats that she just really can't decide am I going to leave this relationship or not? Because there's so many times that when it's good, it's great, right and everything is, and my kids love him and you know, I, my family, loves him and my church tells me that I shouldn't get divorced and all of these other things. It doesn't mean like we're not just looking at oh well then, overall she's in one stage, like you can have that fluidity that she would be staged to about that before, about something else.
Speaker 2:That's what I was thinking too, and when you were saying, maria, the idea of like little steps versus bigger steps, it made me think of like well, if you think of the, the problem quote unquote of domestic violence as a whole, that's a really big, lots of different areas, lots of different things, and so with that, I think it's probably too simple to try to put that whole thing in one stage, or you know. But when you break it down and you look at the different areas that she's wanting to be different or work on, or the different goals that she has, or the different sort of areas of insight that she has Because another one that we commonly hear in Genesis is a lot of times she'll be in a different stage of change regarding her understanding of the domestic violence directly to her versus her understanding of the impact of the domestic violence on her children.
Speaker 2:Like usually we see moms who are willing to or who are able to and ready to accept that this is domestic violence. It's intentional, it's hurting me I really love this person but they are hurting me and it's causing me this issue. We see them sort of move forward in the stage of change in that kind of idea faster than they do in regards to understanding him as a parent for her children, their children, and sort of her awareness of the impact of his behavior for her children, their children, and sort of her awareness of the impact of his behavior on her children. And a lot of times that's because there's so much grief there and there's so much pain in being aware of the impact of his behaviors on her children.
Speaker 3:And not just like the impact, but how he is as a dad right, but he's still a good dad right, he's still a good dad. He's going to the soccer games and he's helping with the homework, without identifying. Oh, and he's using the kids as weapons and he's pitting the kids up against her, yeah, and he's being manipulative and yeah, so that's a good point too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause he's not still a good dad?
Speaker 2:He's not a good dad. He's not. Yeah, it's not.
Speaker 3:That's a whole nother hour conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've actually had that conversation and I could point to several episodes about that one. I think Lundy Bancroft said it best when I asked him can an abusive father be a good dad? And he said no, yeah, no. The answer is no, so we've talked all about the stages of change within the context of domestic violence, but why is it important for people to understand it?
Speaker 2:We mentioned this earlier, but we think the reason if you will, the most important reason is because what we see all the time is victims of domestic violence being held responsible for stopping the abuse and then, when the abuse doesn't stop, then people get frustrated with her and sort of turn against her. We see this in the court system right, that a judge gets frustrated, that they're back in court again and this is there's. You know, this little small point that they're litigating again, and so they're getting frustrated and they will turn to her and act like she's overreacting. Or we see this in family and friends who will get frustrated and be really pushy or maybe even mean in their saying you know where they get to and they say well, you just want this to happen, or you just let him act this way, or you chose, or you're not doing anything about it, right, so you must not really be scared.
Speaker 3:You're letting your children go through this, right, so you must not really be scared.
Speaker 2:You're letting your children go through this because you're choosing, and so, in that, they're not only pushing her away, but they're compounding the trauma, they're compounding the pain and the hurt, and so we think that it's really important to understand changes, or change, because there's just so much empathy Empathy meaning understanding the complexity of where she's at and everything that's going on and meaning understanding the complexity of where she's at and everything that's going on, and there's just so much empathy there in being able to understand where she is.
Speaker 2:I like how you said, ruth, that we talk about this all the time in this podcast, that there are legitimate reasons that she's doing what she's doing, or that she hasn't left, or that she's protecting herself in this way. Stages of change can really help you understand those legitimate reasons and be really, really aware of them and connected to them when you're having conversations with him, with her, and so you're staying open to helping her or being there for her at all times, but you're not pushing, you're not expecting, you're not shaming out of frustration or out of something you know, some sort of expectation that she just fix it already, that she just figure out a way to make the abuse stop.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as a counselor, we have, you know, so many clients who will tell us that their counselor is the only one that understands their situation or the only one who doesn't make them feel bad for what you know, their own decisions and what they're doing. And it'd be so nice if family and friends and, you know, churches and other community members could be that support for her. But we get it. We hear when the family or friend is saying but she keeps going back. She tells me she doesn't want to be with him, but then she goes back. Or, you know, she's saying that she is tired, sick and tired of how he's acting, but she's not putting boundaries Right.
Speaker 3:And so we do have to talk about, first of all, it's not safe to put boundaries with abusive people. But second of all, if, if the friends and family understood the stages of change, then they wouldn't feel frustrated with her. But that also means that they will still be supportive when she does decide to finally leave. Because if they have been, you know giving her money and trying to support her and she keeps going back and they finally get tired of it. Now the abuser can say see, I told you, your family doesn't want to help you. I told you your family, you know, doesn't believe you or doesn't care about you, so that when she does decide that she wants to leave or she does want to reach out for help now she doesn't feel like she can because her friends and family have kind of shown that they got sick of her and that they've stopped supporting her.
Speaker 2:Or maybe they shut the door because they thought of this more of like in an addiction sort of mentality, and so I'm not going to enable it, so I'm going to, and so now she's here and she literally doesn't have support around her. So the first one would be like that empathy building, because we feel like everything comes from empathy. But I think the second reason that would be really important is literally effectiveness in the work. So if we're talking to professionals who are trying to work with victims of domestic violence, stages of change is just more effective, right, there's no time in which I've told a client that she has to do something or should do it and it's resulted in like change. Right, that's not change, that's just like following directions, and I think, ultimately, what we're all trying to do is help her create change so that there is lasting stability, lasting safety.
Speaker 2:Right, sometimes clients do have some things that they need to change. There may be some really unhealthy behaviors. There may be some coping strategies that they have begun using because of the trauma they've experienced, like substance use or things like that, that like they need to change. And it does not help somebody, it is not effective to get them to change by just growing frustrated and pushing or saying you have to or you got to do this. It actually what we have found over and over is it's just more effective to again sort of take that individualized, customized approach to my interventions, to my language, meet her where she's at, literally like you were saying Ruth and then help her kind of do this, build this insight and build this awareness of what she's going to do and then move forward. Ruth and I have the great opportunity. We love doing this training with anybody we can who are professionals. We've done it with police officers and you were saying prosecutors, and we've done it with other counselors and advocates, nurses, workers, yep.
Speaker 2:We kind of want to talk family and friends. We kind of we literally want to teach anybody who's interacting with victims of domestic violence this concept. But professionally speaking, it's always this thing of like do you want to effectively do your work with a victim of domestic violence or not? Because this is the way to be more effective to ultimately get sort of like movement towards the goal that you're wanting to get done.
Speaker 3:And she'll participate more.
Speaker 1:How could people reach you to sign up for this training or have you come to their organization for to present this training?
Speaker 3:Yes, lots and lots. So on our website, genesisshelterorg, there is a spot where you can click on request a speaker and then you'll be able to put in.
Speaker 2:It will say like what topic you can put in stages of change, and everyone at Genesis who receives those requests they know that Jordan and I are the ones that do the stages of change training- Also, we give the training every year, the Conference on Crimes Against Women, and so a great way to hear the presentation in its entirety and also lots of really good presentations from a lot of really good presentations from a lot of really good speakers A lot of speakers even better than Ruth and I is at our Conference on Crimes Against Women, and you can get information from that at our website as well, and that's in May. It is in May.
Speaker 1:It's May 19th through the 22nd. The website for that information is conferencecaworg. Ruth and Jordan. Thank you for being here today.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to give women in abusive situations a way out. We are committed to our mission of providing safety, shelter and support for women and children who have experienced domestic violence, and to raise awareness regarding its cause, prevalence and impact. Join us in creating a societal shift on how people think about domestic violence. You can learn more at GenesisShelterorg and when you follow us on social media on Facebook and Instagram at Genesis Women's Shelter, and on X at Genesis Shelter. The Genesis Helpline is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, by call or text at 214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.