Genesis The Podcast

When Silence Isn't an Option: Communicating Through Personal Trauma and Adversity

• Genesis Women's Shelter & Support

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Melissa Flynn, APR, MBA, brings nearly three decades of PR and marketing expertise to this powerful conversation about finding your voice during life's most challenging moments. What begins as a discussion about traditional crisis communication for organizations transforms into an empowering exploration of how these same principles can help women navigate personal crises with confidence and clarity.

Drawing from their shared professional experience, Melissa and host Maria MacMullin explore how communication strategies used in high-pressure corporate settings can be adapted for women navigating the challenges of discussing domestic violence, sexual assault, or everyday discrimination. For these and other adverse situations, Melissa offers a remarkably practical framework: in urgent situations, focus solely on stating the facts and expressing what you need. For situations with more preparation time, organize your thoughts around the facts first, then provide context before sharing your full story.

The conversation takes a personal turn when Melissa shares her own experience of being mistaken for an assistant in a business meeting despite being the leader of the presentation. These everyday indignities contribute to what the speakers identify as the broader crisis facing women – the systematic undermining of women's voices in personal and professional settings.

What makes this episode truly valuable is its emphasis on practical application. Melissa walks through specific examples of how to respond when someone interrupts you, talks over you, or disrespects you. The key? Practice neutral, fact-based communication before you're in a crisis, focus on what you can control, and recognize that finding your voice is a lifelong journey of small, consistent acts of self-advocacy.

Whether you're navigating workplace discrimination, courtroom testimony, or difficult conversations with a partner, this episode provides concrete tools to help you communicate effectively even in emotionally charged situations. Because everyone has a voice – and everyone deserves to be heard.

Speaker 1:

When crisis comes calling, we typically have to think quickly to respond and are often ill-prepared for that challenge. While we might think of crisis communications as something reserved for big business or government, there are times in our own personal lives where crises arise and we must communicate widely and articulately to various audiences. My guest, accomplished PR and marketing executive, melissa Flynn, joins the conversation with sound guidance for communicating with calm and confidence even in the worst of times. I'm Maria McMullin and this is Genesis, the podcast. Melissa Flynn has nearly 30 years of professional experience providing strategic PR and marketing counsel and smart business impacting strategies for corporations and nonprofits, as well as deep expertise providing counsel to C-suite executives and communication leaders on strategic communications planning, brand positioning and North Star explorations, market research and strategic implementation issues in crisis management and creative attention-getting programming. Melissa is also an accomplished executive communication, media and public speaking coach. Prior to opening her own consultancy, melissa was a senior leader at some of the country's top PR and integrated agencies, including Ketchum and the Richards Group. She has an MBA from the University of Tennessee, a BA from the University of Michigan and is accredited in public relations.

Speaker 1:

Melissa, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to see you again. We met about 10 or so years ago and we became fast friends and I have learned so much from you about marketing and messaging and how to capture an audience, and I often find myself reflecting on your advice or a project we worked on to draw from the well of experience we have established over the years. One of our most memorable adventures, if you will, that found us in crisis was when Ebola virus came to town. Do you remember that? Yes, I sure do. Yeah, vividly. We were both working together within a healthcare environment at that time and it was hectic and harrowing and it was a long, drawn out crisis and widespread impact with rapid changes that had us turning on a dime. We were really spinning.

Speaker 1:

When I think about where I am now working with survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault and gender-based crimes, it seems that the experiences of survivors are really not that different from a major life-altering crisis we might find in the media. But I suppose the difference is the scale, right. So capital C and small c. So capital C crisis, small c crisis, but on a, because on a macro level, the capital C crisis in this instance would be the entire epidemic of domestic violence, which is itself a major crisis, but then each experience of violence against women that is a crisis to her. So the little C, because it's a crisis to her and a crisis to her children.

Speaker 1:

So I'm saying all of that to just set up for our audience that you and I have been working together for years. You're the communications field and I'm in the domestic violence space doing lots of things, including this podcast, and I'm in the domestic violence space doing lots of things, including this podcast. But I turn to you for your expertise in communication and hopefully to get a definition of crisis communications so we can kind of move out from there. So, to begin, how do we define crisis communications generally and how are we able to apply that definition to the context of women using their voice in times of challenge?

Speaker 2:

Well, first of all, thank you for letting me be part of this podcast and this very important conversation, Maria. Yes, I do remember our respective challenge with Ebola and many others, but let me first start off by saying you know I want to say this to anyone listening I'm in no way a licensed therapist or am I personally privy to abusive situations. At this moment, however, what I can say is that I am a communications professional who has spent decades helping people communicate effectively during really tough times. I think it's an important caveat, because I would never want to position myself that way. That said, I think a simple way to say what crisis communications is is how we respond when something really serious happens that could cause harm, so that could be to a person, or maybe to a company or a community. It's all about getting the right message out at the right time to reduce the impact or damage and to maintain trust and help those who are affected. So you can picture how that would dotted line to women in these situations Before I go there, though. Most of the time, I think what people are most familiar with when they hear the phrase crisis comms or crisis communication is when something major happens unexpected to a company or to a city or a public figure. So a scandal or a fire, or to like the fires in LA, maybe? Yes, you know, these are strategies that are put in place to provide clarity and concern and responsibility to folks during that time.

Speaker 2:

Now to answer your direct question about women in domestic violence and abusive situations, I'm going to be honest, I had never really thought about it in that context until now, but it's so relevant and I'm glad you're bringing this to the surface because crisis communications in these cases feel so much more personal and urgent to me, feels so much more personal and urgent to me. It's more about survival and safety and empowerment. I often hear that phrase. Speak your truth. I think that is what we're talking about in crisis comms and domestic violence or sexual assault cases.

Speaker 2:

So, to use your phrase you had said so women facing a small C crisis. It is likely in my view again, not an expert that there would be ongoing, maybe many times, or immediate threats to think about from a communications standpoint. So I don't know, maybe it's women trying to find a way to ask for help, just thinking through how to handle interactions with an abuser, or maybe it's, you know, kind of working with the legal system or preparing for testimony, or maybe it's you know kind of working with the legal system or preparing for testimony. So those are some ways that I think communications crisis, communications skill might telegraph to what these women are facing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think you've got it. I think you're onto something and I just back up a little bit to something you said when you talked about the fires in California recently, about the fires in California recently. And a crisis communication, there might be where to go right, the direction that is needed, how to contact first responders, where help is needed, what roads are closed, where you can find shelter and water and so on.

Speaker 2:

So that's kind of managing within a crisis, right, and then, clarity among communication, clarity of information, because so much, there's so much noise.

Speaker 1:

So, yes, yes, and then there's the. When I think of crisis communications, I think of cleaning some mess up. Okay, so I'm thinking of a terrible situation at a business that the business needs to speak to, and I can't. The only thing that comes to mind to me might be some sort of scandal. I think of Enron, you know, many years ago, when that went down, that was huge, huge scandal.

Speaker 1:

I think of sexual harassment cases that, need you know, some crisis comms around them for both the victim and then the company as well. So I just feel like we can use your skill set in communications to kind of overlay to situations where women are really challenged, whether it's domestic violence or they're just downright uncomfortable speaking up for themselves. I think that we can use some of the wisdom from the field of crisis communications to guide women who are experiencing these challenging things and maybe help them find their voice and tell their stories whether it's reporting a crime to law enforcement, testifying in family court or simply talking with a family member about their experience in ways that are clear, calm and confident. What guidance can you offer us here?

Speaker 2:

I think you drew some effective parallels earlier and I think, in terms of a lot of people think of crisis comms as the cleanup crew or the protect crew or it's the cover-up crew, but I think in this context, with women facing very difficult situations, I think it's about helping women feel that they can communicate effectively in a really tough time.

Speaker 2:

So, while I can only imagine what these women face and how daunting it must be to tell their stories or ask for help or report a crime, I think there are a handful of things that they can do and prep for and practice and we'll talk about that, I think, a little later to communicate effectively. I think it's worth noting, too, that crisis communications is such a specialty area because when situations are difficult, as you and I've both experienced, or even maybe dire, that's when we get quiet. Companies don't want to talk. We don't want to talk as humans, we get emotional and we wish we were able to speak more logically. When things are, there's a lot of fire in a situation or difficulty and we want to be able to be proactive and calm, and I think that probably is amplified in personal crises. So I think it's even more important here to have a few tools in your toolbox, knowing that you can pull them out in tough situations.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's exactly what we're looking for Because, to your point, when things get really tough and hard and emotional, and especially if you're in a situation where you're being abused by someone or you've been sexually assaulted, finding the words may be impossible. Sure, especially when you've experienced trauma.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean I can't. That's the aspect. I have dealt with so many crises where the people affected are in shock or the people affected have very little to say because they're just taking it in. I would think that this is even more than that. Yeah, so the way I, the way I thought I might offer some some counsel, is of two buckets of scenarios to consider. So my instinct is that there are women who are currently in abusive urgent situations, so they need to use their voice and their words to tell people, to find help, to report the issue. And then there's this other bucket of women who are preparing themselves to provide testimony, or maybe it's sharing their story with family or friends, and I'm sure there are many other scenarios. So forgive the generalizations, but the point is just to say one is fairly urgent, need to communicate, and the other one has a bit of planning. I think together they have some similarities in how you might communicate, but I'd like to offer some nuances that could be helpful as well. So for the first one, which is those sort of dire urgent situations where time is of the essence, if I were in these women's shoes and again, not in their shoes, but hoping to help.

Speaker 2:

I'd focus on a couple of things. The first is what is happening Factual and second is what you need your goal. So what do you need from this moment? So what is happening? What you need, Of course, what I'm just saying. What is happening, what you need, of course, what I'm just saying. If you're facing an abuser or incredibly emotional situation, it has got to be so hard, and I recognize this From my experience when situations are in crisis mode. However, sticking to the facts and stating what you need are key. Okay, that would be for women facing Maria, those more in-the-moment dire situation. The second bucket which I mentioned, you know, those are those that women might have a bit more planning time for testimony or storytelling. I mean equally hard, but have a bit more time. I'd focus on being organized in your thoughts, in your thoughts.

Speaker 2:

So the natural tendency, in my view, is that when especially, by the way, given traumatic experience that these women have likely gone through is that we will share long stories that are extremely worthy yet perhaps a bit hard to follow. I know that when I can speak for myself, when I have had stressful or very heavy, heated conversations, I tend to go on and on, because I'm almost stream of consciousness, right. I would suggest kind of a stick to the facts approach first, so the who, what, when, where, why, what happened. Then think about your response.

Speaker 2:

So what did you do to take action right, or what did others do to help you take action, and then from there I think it's that sharing the bigger picture, the bigger picture context, so it might be. You know history of abuse, previous reports, children involved and affected, and then beyond that it's your story to tell. So I think you know the more composed and calm you can be great and the more effective you are in communicating. But again, sticking to the facts, thinking about the action you took, sharing that bigger picture context, and then adding in color, that is your story to tell, will, I think, be an organized approach. When you are asked longer term sort of planning situations, maybe it's related to testimony or other things, and I guess the end game here would be be sure what your goal is again, what outcome do you want when you leave the court? What are you hoping they've heard from you and why? That's what matters at the end of the day.

Speaker 1:

So that's a good framework. And just to back up for a minute typically if we're talking about the family court situation, hopefully she's going into the courtroom prepared, with an attorney or some legal counsel representing her and her interests, right? I think very often if you are working with counsel, you'll sit down and make these kind of logical plans that you need in order to tell your side of the story and convince the court why you should have custody of the children and he should not, or something of that nature. That's usually what family courts are used for. So a framework there is good, especially to your point, if you have the time to think this through, have the time to think this through. It's in those spur of the moment situations where you know you have to. You know they are very emotionally driven.

Speaker 1:

The ones when you're in that first bucket that you talked about, which I think was the one of having a really crisis experience, and you're just traumatized and in shock, and so remind us again what you said. You told us two things for that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I think in those situations, just like in many ways, it's how I would handle a crisis in general. So, and if you can't do this, by the way, in your mind, write it down. So if you anything that you can do, I'd focus on what is happening. First, factual information, right, and the second is what you need, your goal. So stick to the facts and state what you need, those two things because I think if we get caught up in all the emotion, people have to pull apart and piece apart. I think of kind of like peeling an onion of what's really happening. So just stick to the facts and what you need is what I think would help women in those situations.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so now zooming out to the epidemic of violence against women. There are a lot of voices in this conversation worldwide, and many of them offer poised and compelling messaging, but on top of what is already a crisis, we are facing a new crisis across this continent that is impacting women in every way, and this is the capital C of crises, because the women's movement is under attack From a comms perspective. How can we navigate this adversity and stand our ground in a dignified, yet very clear way?

Speaker 2:

This is a really tough question and I gave it a lot of thought ahead of time because I think, sadly, you're spot on, maria. I mean, there are layers and layers and layers of attempts to silence women and their voices by pigeonholing us as hysterical women. Or maybe it's because we're legitimizing men for standing tall and being aggressive in business and in life but punishing women for doing the same, and I think many of us have experienced those kind of situations. I mean, I think, in my view, whether it's the small C or the capital C crisis, the onus is on women to recognize their worth and to fight for it. I believe and I know I'm I in no way am belittling or making, trying to make it sound easier than it is for women facing abusive situations, but I hope that the message would be you are worthy of being treated well and having a voice. Every woman is worthy of that. I think there will always be people and groups and, frankly, a male-dominated workplace that we live in until that changes who aim to keep women from rising to their full potential and who, going back to that, belittle women's accomplishments in the workplace and or who are clearly misogynistic. So I think the answer to your question is that we can't change those people, but we can focus on our locus of control. That is what we can affect From a crisis communication standpoint.

Speaker 2:

It's a regular position I take in my own mind what can I affect and what can't I affect? What we can affect is we can control our own narrative. I'm speaking broadly at the moment, not let others define what we do and how we do it. We can stick together as women who have similar circumstances. We can stick together as women right and who have similar circumstances. We can come together Maybe it's abusive ones and ensure abusers or gaslighters don't divide us. And I think we can use our words to effectively communicate what is and isn't okay with facts and emotions, and I think it's important to say, especially to this group of women, that both are okay. We shouldn't have to be unemotional or hardened to succeed or be perceived as less than or weak, even because we choose to lead with facts and emotions.

Speaker 2:

And I think oftentimes, at least in society, women who have emotions and this is speaking to your sort of women's movement, women who have emotions are perceived differently, and I think the reality is we're not all supposed to be neutral beings. We have feelings and they serve a purpose. The key is how do we harness them, how do we use them to affect what we can? So I'll give you an example. You had suggested that you know. Consider some examples, and I think the Me Too movement is a perfect example. Right, it's women coming together, worst of circumstances, to own the narrative. They framed what had happened to them with resolve, control. Can they change these guys? No. Can they affect what's happening around them? Can they technically affect what they're going to claim? No, but they can focus on their narrative, sticking to it and sticking together. And there was power in numbers right and it worked.

Speaker 1:

That's a great example of kind of a communications plan that had some very impactful outcomes.

Speaker 2:

I agree and I think I look at those women with such admiration because they were facing what I bet a lot of these women I mean fear and you know what are the look at them and say, you know, making excuses and belittling their feelings, and they stuck together, stuck to the facts, said what they wanted to happen and happen and really won because of it.

Speaker 1:

You know. I'd like to just you know, maybe add to that and to your point you're not a licensed mental health professional, and neither am I. I work for a domestic violence agency. I host this podcast, sure, host this podcast, but that doesn't make me a social worker or a professional counselor. However, I do think that what I hope people listening take away from this conversation is our attempt, as two professionals in different fields, to bring this to people's attention different fields, to bring this to people's attention that there is a way that you can make a plan for your communication. If it's something that's already happened to you, is happening to you, or you just want to be prepared for your own safety and self-care in the future, you can make a personal communication plan that will give you confidence to speak when you have to, and I think the advice of sticking to the facts and understanding what you need the outcome to be is it's enough to start the plan.

Speaker 2:

I feel like it needs to be simple, because in those moments we're probably not our most rational Right and you can remember two things, and those two things are what you can control, which is state, the facts and what you need. Sure, so that goes back to that. Yeah, I think it's worse if we have a minute too. I wanted to share an example that I have faced, because I feel like in many ways I'm reaching over my ski tips in this conversation, because I never would want to imply that I can relate, but I can from a standpoint of what it feels like in corporate America, and I think it's worth noting that professionally, that professionally, you and I both have seen how today's corporate America rewards men right, and that speaks to that larger women's movement too. We see larger salaries for men.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, promotions and benefits and getting ahead and being at the table. Just being at the table is a big, big one.

Speaker 2:

It's so prevalent and I don't walk around as a woe me person, as you know, but at the same time, you can't ignore some of it, which is very fair, like women should do whatever is the office, housework right, simply. Or maybe we just accept subtly hostile work environments right, and so those kinds of things. And I wanted to share one specific memory, because I think this is how a lot of this kind of I guess it is maybe women's activism begins, because we get sick of moments like this, and I think it's related to women who, in these larger domestic violence and abusive it's kind of how it starts, right. So, like I had a CEO I walked into, I had a room that I was pitching business in and a CEO walked into the room. I was the only woman, that was all men and he walked up to me and asked me to get him a coffee. This was early on in my career and he assumed that I was the assistant and I yeah, I mean right to my face too, and no, no, hesitancy, and, by the way, I was dressed in a suit, so it wasn't like I was, you know, and I stood tall and I kindly walked him over to where the coffee was, and said very little.

Speaker 2:

And a few minutes later he learned that I was leading this pitch, right, and so I'm out in front making the business case, and I'll never forget the look on his face to this day. I even know what he was wearing and I realized then and it stuck to me enough to bring it up here that we don't need to take those biases and live with them. Right, we don't need to. But those are the small things that do add up over time and do build and kind of create that environment that you talked about. And I know we're going to talk a little bit more about finding your voice. But those are the moments where I think back on what should I have said? What could I have done? And the reality is, I've thought about it every day since. So I don't let it happen, but I think there are some ways that these are some of the ways that it builds for women too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and how we start looking at ourselves. Those are those tiny building blocks that bring you to a point where you finally realize, hey, me too. Right, that's right, that's right. So what did you say to him when he asked?

Speaker 2:

you. Well, I didn't need to say much besides. I mean, when I guided him to the coffee stand, he kind of looked at me like you're not going to pour it for me. I mean, it really was that look, and I remember being a little gobsmacked by it, right. But after I pitched, he said very little to me. I think I don't know if he was embarrassed, I don't know if he was realizing women can be smart too. I'm not entirely sure, but I didn't say much. He didn't say much and I remember thinking, oh, you should have been stronger, you should have walked up to him afterwards and said you know something a little smart. And I thought, nah, you know, I wasn't in that place, I didn't have the tools. Yeah, so now I do, and I would never. I might do something more drastic now, but then right, but then I didn't and I kind of I don't know, I still think about it.

Speaker 1:

So I'm really glad that you shared this story with us. I think that it's important to have the context of like where you're coming from with some of this advice and the work that you do, that it's not only from a textbook, it's not only from your lived professional experience. It's also been your personal experience with kind of the ups and downs of managing or navigating the patriarchy. So let's talk about helping women find their voice in any situation. That may be a minor crisis, like standing up for herself at work, case in point or addressing an injustice, or even just telling their partner their expectations. Within a relationship. How can we prepare ourselves to navigate the unexpected, when it happens, or just the everyday uncomfortable situation of our lives?

Speaker 2:

I don't know if you would agree with this, but I think this is probably one of the toughest things women face, mainly because we're conditioned in many ways to see ourselves as both strong and emotional and there's just lots of conflicting feelings, lots of cognitive dissonance, I think, around it, and I talk with women friends quite a bit and colleagues about what's like the right level of standing up for yourself, and I think women struggle to find their voice without feeling like they're being overly emotional, right In expressing it or they just let things go, because conflict, you know, with men in particular, can often be really difficult. So where I've netted out on this and I've shared this with a handful of women, and and I've also, it's worth noting I also am a coach, right, and I coach a lot of executives, and so part of me is like what do you say? There is a lot of this in business, there's a lot of this in life. So here's what I would say I don't think there's any right level of standing up for yourself or finding your voice. There is only standing up for yourself, and the way that you get good at it is through practice and the less emotional you are in those situations, even though emotions aren't bad, I think, the more effective you can be.

Speaker 2:

So women will say things like but I don't want to cry, and I get that, I really do, because I've been in those shoes right. Crying makes you feel just like, oh, I'm losing control. So here's what I would say practice phrases and approaches when you're not in conflict or tough situations. You know it's that look in the mirror, talk to a friend approach. But I use this basic approach with nearly every tough situation at home and at work and in relationships. And let me I guess it's worth noting I fully appreciate that abusive relationships don't often follow rules right, so you can't always follow a process, but I do believe that the more you practice bringing back power to your narrative and your voice, the easier it is in those tough moments to pull it out quickly. The more practice makes perfect.

Speaker 1:

I think it's a lifetime of building up to feeling like you're doing it right. You know, feeling like you've stood up for yourself and you're doing it right. You know, feeling like you've you're stood up for yourself and you got your point across. And when I say that, I'm not really referring to women living with an abusive partner so much as if you have conflict in any relationship or or within a you know your intimate partner relationship and you just want your partner to understand you and what your expectations are. That in itself can be extremely difficult to articulate and that I think practice is is important. Practice is great If you're just, if you want to be able to say what you, what you need to say Couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2:

I mean, it works in every fashion. It works everywhere, whether you're in an extremely heated moment at home with your partner or at work. I actually have made it kind of a pet project and probably because, like most people, I've done a lot of therapy right. Really think about what makes me feel that I can convey effectively my feelings, retain my voice authentically and have some power in it. Right, and I think the assumption is it always has to be very loud and aggressive, and I think it's the opposite.

Speaker 2:

You know, my approach that I believe puts power back in my hands and others which I coach to folks when they communicate is, first of all, you got to listen to the person and really hear and watch what's happening. Don't react right. I'll give you an example of this in a minute. But then I think it's about acknowledging what's been said and how you've been treated right, and it doesn't mean validating, it just means acknowledging right. There's a big difference between validating someone and acknowledging what is happening, because it doesn't mean you have to agree, okay.

Speaker 2:

I think the third is that you state how the actions made you feel and the final is piece is what you're asking for as a solution, and I've and the reason I've sort of pulled this apart is because I think about the approach that I take every single time now, learned across years of work and life and everything else, and I think there's an example I can give that brings this to life. So let's say you're in a meeting and there's a co-worker in this case we're talking about a woman in a meeting and a male co-worker that continues to talk over you or interrupts you and they don't do the same to men. I've only had that happen to me dozens of times.

Speaker 1:

I'm sure many other women have too.

Speaker 2:

Just going to be honest here.

Speaker 1:

I'm sure many other women have too. Just going to be honest here. I'm sorry, but I know exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker 2:

I'm not trying to be, you know, but I've had it when you find yourself, you know, sort of putting that face on where you're tilting your head like am I imagining this or is he just talking over me every time I open my mouth, and so if you react in the moment, I don't think it serves you well, you know a reactive approach. So I think there you can either, you know, be that person who leaves angry or leaves with a plan, like an approach. So maybe it's taking in what he's doing. Using that approach I mentioned a minute ago, like, so you're taking in what he's doing, count the number of times it's happening. So get like really left brained on it and logical this as much as you can, meaning, okay, step aside and look up down on this situation rather, and see, okay, so he's done this now seven times and it's quite rude. So you can either do two things right. You can kindly pull him aside after the words and afterwards and state the facts. So you can either do two things right. You can kindly pull them aside after the words and afterwards and state the facts.

Speaker 2:

So you can say during that meeting you interrupted me several times and talked over me another couple of times, I felt really disrespected by your actions. My contributions matter as much as yours do and, honestly, I've had this conversation so I can tell you this isn't made up and the key is waiting for him to respond. Don't interrupt and hear him. So you can think about this in personal lives or in work situations. I think silence in those moments is golden, because that person can answer in a snarky way and you can acknowledge that, or the answer could be really kind and apologetic and you can acknowledge that. So I have had this exact response, which is I see you're not able to take what I'm saying seriously and that's really unfortunate. Regardless, I expect to be treated with respect, so please don't talk over me.

Speaker 1:

I love that. It's so. It's the facts and it's not confrontational. I'm just telling you what the facts are right, that's right, that's right. And how they impacted me and how I would like us to conduct ourselves going forward.

Speaker 2:

That's right. And now does it take practice, maria, to get to the point where you can do that without wanting to launch into him? Yes, but it also leaves you. I mean, I guarantee you he's not going to interrupt you again, and he didn't me when I was able to do this. Now, in a dream world and some of us have done this too you can actually interrupt during, like you can wait for a break in a conversation and do the same thing with a bit more, like you know, gravitas, and louder tone or confidence, and say like excuse me, john, I'd like to share a few thoughts or whatever.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, let me know how that goes for you.

Speaker 2:

But it doesn't work very well and I think we know that we can try. I'd much rather pull them aside and have a factual conversation and not react.

Speaker 1:

It only reinforces what I think is a very rude, disrespectful type of behavior by then talking over the person who talks over. You Agreed.

Speaker 2:

Agreed no-transcript. Honey, what was just said about the way I do blank really hurt my feelings. And wait, see his reaction. If you can stay that way and really own your space, the reaction is typically oh gosh, I'm so sorry, I won't do that again If it's not stand up for yourself, right, I really would hope you wouldn't do that again. That really hurt. Yeah, right, I think those kinds of voices, I think we think it needs to be, like I said earlier, loud, aggressive. You know, I think the more you practice the opposite, the more you're actually able to find your strong voice without a big, loud impact in those tough moments. And that's what I would say.

Speaker 1:

And that advice, right there, goes all the way back to the couple minutes ago, when we were talking about how women's organizations and others can make public statements without being rude. Make public statements without being rude, without being loud, by simply stating the facts of what is happening, reiterating it right back to you, whoever you are the aggressor or liar or mansplainer in this situation, and just presenting you with the facts and saying this is not acceptable to us and we plan to continue our work in the women's movement to achieve equity for all people. Goodbye, that's it.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and I mean, you know, in therapy terms, the more we can stay in our wise, rational minds right the more we win. Yes, you broke a very important boundary today and I'm really hurt and concerned. Yes, I will continue forward.

Speaker 1:

And that was my hope for having this conversation. Now that I've talked over you about nine times in the past minute, I feel very disrespected and hurt.

Speaker 2:

Maria, I am so sorry. I'm kidding.

Speaker 1:

Go ahead. See, we can role play this, we can practice. This is practice. See, we can role play this, we can practice. This is practice. My hope was that we could really take a look at how we communicate ourselves. This doesn't always have to be about someone else, either. It doesn't have to be about the person who is harassing you or disrespecting you. It can be about how do I communicate that engenders respect for myself.

Speaker 2:

That's right? I think so. I mean just seeing the more empowered we feel to stand up for ourselves. Right To believe that we should have a voice and then to use it with practice. Right To use it with practice. I think so often we squash down, as women, feelings and we feel like you know we need to talk and sound a certain way. The reality is it's fair and completely valid to have feelings. I think the key is the more neutral and factual we can be helps those feelings be heard. And I know that's a really conflicting statement, because so often when you're feeling strongly about something, it comes across with emotionality right. But I do think with practice we can help ourselves. I really do.

Speaker 1:

We can help to kind of shape that so that we will achieve a goal that we want to achieve at the end of the day.

Speaker 1:

Not really talking about this for people who are in the heat of the moment of domestic violence or people who are trying to respond to a tactic of abuse, but if the time presents itself and the opportunity presents itself, anyone can take a step back and practice their voice, because you do have one. Everyone has a voice and everyone has the right to share it. And, as far as I know, we are still a country of free speech and we should be able to say what's on our minds without igniting either in a broad sense or in a personal, you know, in a smaller setting. Without igniting a fire, we should be able to talk to one another, and women are not typically nurtured into speaking their minds or presenting themselves as confident or using their voice, and so I wanted to bring this topic to this show, to this specific audience who might be survivors, who might be people who support survivors, that a communication plan is just as good for women on an individual basis and in their personal lives as it is for big corporate and institutions nationwide.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I applaud you for bringing this to the table. I hadn't even thought of it in this context until you and I started talking, and I think it's so important because crisis sounds like it happens to us, which in many cases it does, but the truth of it is, if we're prepared, it's less of a crisis because we already have thought through what we need, how to act, through what we need, how to act, lots of our language. So, you know, to the women out there who are wondering if they have a voice and wondering how to use it, I would say just know that there are tools, there are ways to think of this that just are centered around women's ability to stick to facts, to know that their narrative is their own. They can own it. They don't have to like oh, am I what I'm saying, true? Is it too emotional? Own it, it's yours, it's yours.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's very empowering when you do that I do think it's difficult for some men to be in the presence of women who are really confident and know how to use their voice. But I think we can change that conversation as well.

Speaker 2:

And I think I've, on the flip side, I've been around so many men who are really comfortable around strong women. So I think I've seen both sides and I really appreciate both sides, because not everyone's in the same communications or sort of, I guess, headspace journey. But I do think you're right, we can change it and I think small, small things add up. So as much as we have these little things that happen to us as women that build up, we also can add to our toolbox and have those build up. So here's to women finding their way and women having their voice and coming prepared with strength.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, hear, hear, and thank you, melissa, for talking with me today and applying your expertise to this topic.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to give women in abusive situations a way out. We are committed to our mission of providing safety, shelter and support for women and children who have experienced domestic violence and to raise awareness regarding its cause, prevalence and impact. Join us in creating a societal shift on how people think about domestic violence. You can learn more at GenesisShelterorg and when you follow us on social media on Facebook and Instagram at Genesis Women's Shelter, and on X at Genesis Shelter. The Genesis Helpline is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, by call or text at 214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.