Genesis The Podcast

Unmasking the Narcissist

• Genesis Women's Shelter & Support

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What happens when the person who claims to love you systematically dismantles your sense of reality? Tiffany Tate, CEO of The Family Place in Dallas and a survivor of narcissistic abuse, bravely shares her story for the first time on this powerful episode.
 
 "When you don't trust the thoughts that are in your head, that is very, very hard to recover from," Tiffany reveals, describing her decade-long journey through a relationship that left her constantly questioning her sanity. Despite her professional background as a licensed clinical social worker, she found herself trapped in the fog of manipulation, gaslighting, and emotional control—proof that narcissistic abuse can happen to anyone, regardless of education or awareness.
 
The conversation cuts through the pop culture misuse of "narcissist" to clarify crucial distinctions: narcissist as a label, narcissism as a trait, and Narcissistic Personality Disorder as a clinical diagnosis requiring specific criteria. Tiffany explains how these behaviors escalate into abuse when consistently used to strip away a partner's independence and autonomy, often invisible to outsiders as narcissists masterfully present different faces to different audiences.
 
For those currently navigating relationships with narcissistic partners, Tiffany offers practical strategies that saved her: the "gray rock technique" of minimal emotional response, limiting personal disclosures that could be weaponized, and anchoring through journaling to validate experiences when gaslit. She also discusses available therapeutic interventions and the complex challenges of treating narcissistic offenders, whose lack of empathy and insight make meaningful change difficult.
 
This episode provides not just understanding but actionable resources for survivors, from recommended books and support communities to safety planning strategies. Whether you're questioning your own relationship dynamics or supporting someone who might be experiencing narcissistic abuse, this conversation offers validation, clarity, and pathways toward healing.

Speaker 1:

Pop culture has exploited the term narcissist in recent years, allowing that label to be both overused and adjusted to fit a spectrum of individuals and agendas. But ask any survivor and they'll tell you. Narcissist behavior is real and it's a menacing set of traits that range from mild to severe and, in some cases, result in extreme cruelty and abuse. Most experts agree that the narcissist displays behaviors of having a huge sense of self-importance, a constant need for admiration, lack of empathy, sense of entitlement and manipulative or exploitive conduct. But even that seemingly simple explanation presents on a continuum that can be challenging to navigate. Tiffany Tate, ceo of the Family Place in Dallas, texas, and a survivor herself, joins the conversation to explore the depths of this insidious behavior and what you can do about it. I'm Maria McMullin and this is Genesis, the podcast.

Speaker 1:

Tiffany Tate is a licensed clinical social worker. Board approved supervisor, joined the family place in june 2014 following a 20-year career in non-profit social services. Prior to the family place, tiffany worked at agencies addressing the needs of abused women and children, persons with severe mental illness and the homeless. At the family place, tiffany was Chief Client Services Officer, chief Operating Officer and Interim CEO before being promoted to her current position in July 2024. Tiffany earned bachelor's degrees in psychology and sociology from Spelman College and a master's degree in social work from the University of Texas at Arlington. Her extensive background includes experience in program design, development and implementation, community and organizational needs assessments, services and grants, coordination, staff development and behavioral health. Tiffany, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me, Maria.

Speaker 1:

It's good to be with you. Genesis and the Family Place have a long history as partners in the Dallas community, supporting the health and safety of domestic violence survivors, as well as leading the effort to create awareness about and end abuse of women and children, and you are fully enlightened on domestic violence due to this work and your work as a licensed clinical social worker supervisor. And yet today we're here to talk about not just your work in support of survivors, which you've done for more than 20 years, but your own journey of living with an abusive partner. Can you share with us what happened to you?

Speaker 2:

Yes, so first I want to start again by just thanking you for allowing me to share my story. It's the first time I'm sharing it in full, so I'm a bit nervous about it, oh, wow.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, we all support you and it's a pleasure to get to know you and hear your story, so thank you in advance for bringing it to me and to our audience.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much. I understand the importance of validating this experience for people who may be going through it, so I think it's important to note that, because of what I experienced for so long, I just wanted to remain quiet and a lot of times it was because I questioned my own reality. But one day I was randomly listening to the radio and I heard the saying the person who holds the narrative holds the power. So, despite my fear around sharing it, I decided like that, I own the story and I don't want to share it because it may help others.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing. So thank you again for having me. It's very important.

Speaker 2:

So what happened to me? I was involved in a relationship and very early on I saw the signs distortion in conversations, lying, a real exaggerated sense of self and his role in other people's lives, and then constant changes to his living situation. Lots of early gaslighting that I fell for, really because of how he presented himself. But also, you know, narcissistic people prey on weaknesses. So I inadvertently presented myself at the time as an uninformed, unskilled parent that needed someone to help fix me and my children's lives. During that time I had an older child who was going through some personal struggles and I didn't have contact with him off and on for periods of time and I was vulnerable about what I now know is an enmeshed relationship with my daughter. We are extremely close with each other, but when I talked to him about it, I expressed a vulnerability and so he positioned himself as like the savior for my children and also from my children, who he constantly termed as taking advantage of me. So how all of that manifested in the relationship is really an invalidation for having needs or expressing myself. I learned not to express myself or to have any needs at all. My reality constantly challenged, minimized my work accomplishments to not offend him. So as I progressed through my career or wanted to return to school, I knew that that would be perceived as a threat, so I had to minimize that, always a fear around his interactions with others, particularly in social environments. So in restaurants I was always on guard inside, worried that he would explode on the waiter and when I say exploded, you wouldn't see anything visual but like a very stern talking to that was oftentimes unwarranted, so I was always in a space of having to make sure I had a response or a fix for those kinds of situations. Again, I experienced also shame, because I do this work and like how did I stay in the relationship so long? And I think most significantly is the guilt I feel for how this relationship harmed my children.

Speaker 2:

I knew that his behavior was inappropriate, but he also had an awareness of it. So he did it out of sight of other people, which left me without support or validation for what I was experiencing, right, because no one else saw it. So if I would in the beginning start to question things, people would say, oh, absolutely not. Like, he's not that way. You know, they have the ability to be chameleons, like shapeshifters, right To appear one way internally and another way. Externally, everyone acted as if they thought he was amazing, but since the end of the relationship, I've learned that it was really to decrease conflict with him or because they were afraid of retaliation. There have been people who've reached out to me people from his childhood, people that were close to him in other arenas and they've really validated my thoughts, so that was helpful.

Speaker 2:

I think the last thing to note is that I really continue to struggle which I'm sure most survivors do with the fact that it wasn't bad all the time. Right, there were times that we laughed, there were shared experiences, there were travel, but what I've realized over time is that the good times were just enough to replant the self-doubt, meaning that if the time was good or if we engage in a time period that was good, it would make me question whether all the bad experiences I had were really real or to control me right. There were a few times that I set a boundary in response to his behavior and he perceived that to be a threat, so then he would infuse a good experience, like we're going to go on a trip or we're going to go to a concert. So lots of manipulation that I experienced early on.

Speaker 1:

It all sounds so calculated and I'm familiar with the term narcissism and narcissist and there are a couple of different terms here that we're going to unpack but it sounds so calculated and deliberate and intentional. Is that how you experienced it as being intentional?

Speaker 2:

There's so many ways to answer that question, but what I will say is it is intentional in as much as the narcissist needs to get his needs met. So I do not believe that a person who has narcissistic behaviors or personality disorder wakes up in the morning and says I'm going to make this person's life miserable, but it is a pattern of behavior that allows them to get their needs met, which is oftentimes just based in insecurity.

Speaker 2:

So, with work or as I was moving up in my career in education. If he is insecure about that, then what do I need to do? Make her feel guilty about that? So she'll minimize it. So I think it is intentional, but the end result is for them to have their own needs met.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely. I know you're right and you have so much experience in this area, so it's amazing to hear not just your personal story but how you are able to interpret it now and really reflect upon what happened to you, and so I guess we can say your ex was a narcissist, right?

Speaker 2:

Let me clarify that I am not calling him a narcissist. I don't believe that he has ever been to anyone who is licensed to label him a narcissist. What I am saying is that, with my professional experience and living in the household with him, he is someone that greatly evidenced narcissistic personality disorder Got it and as popular, if you will, as that term narcissist has become lately.

Speaker 1:

it can often be misunderstood or behaviors mislabeled. Can you help us understand the difference between the terms narcissist, narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder, as well as the behaviors or signs that identify these types of individuals?

Speaker 2:

Yes, the most important part of this discussion is that it's important to understand that narcissism is on a spectrum, so it's not. You either are a narcissist or you're not Right. If you think of it this way, narcissist is a label, narcissism is a trait that can range from healthy to unhealthy, and then narcissistic personality disorder is a clinical disorder. So when someone calls someone a narcissist, it's generally a term that's used to describe someone who's self-centered or arrogant. Right, these people talk about themselves. You've seen those movies where people are on dates at the table and the guy is just talking about himself all the time. They talk about their achievements, whether they're real or imagined, and they seek attention and they do not like criticism. They can be annoying or frustrating, but they don't always cause harm, right, when you think about the label narcissist, some behaviors or signs are constantly talking about themselves, exaggerating their achievements, craving attention and admiration. They struggle to empathize with others or they use empathy as a manipulation tactic, and then they become defensive or angry when given feedback, because they view all feedback as criticism if it's not in agreement. So that's narcissist. Let's talk about narcissism. That is a set of personality traits for someone who has an intense desire to be recognized. So lots of self-focus and needing attention. A little bit of a step up from narcissist, because these are personality traits which means they're ongoing and you see them pretty consistently. On the healthy side it can look like confidence and pride. On the unhealthy side it can look like entitlement, manipulation and lack of accountability.

Speaker 2:

So to move even further, narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health diagnosis. It's an ongoing rigid pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration and lack of real empathy empathy. So when you are using the diagnostic manual, which is what psychiatrists and psychologists use to diagnose someone, there are nine characteristics in the narcissistic personality disorder scope to be diagnosed with. You have to have five of the nine. So the nine are exaggerated sense of self-importance, fantasies about unlimited success, power, beauty, love. They believe that they're special and only understood by high status people. They require excessive admiration. They have a sense of entitlement. They exploit others for personal gain. They lack empathy. They're often envious of others or believes others envy them and their arrogant, egotistical and conceited behaviors or attitudes. So if you have five of those nine things, you get the diagnosis. In my experience my partner had all but one and that was lax empathy. But the empathy was only used for manipulation, there was never a true empathy.

Speaker 1:

That's incredible.

Speaker 2:

That's what I experienced is the narcissistic personality disorder, and it's really damaging to relationships and families.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for clarifying all of that. Just to recap narcissist label, narcissism behavior, narcissistic personality disorder, diagnosis and I think those are really important distinctions for us to make, because we're seeing these terms to the extent on social media and on the internet and lots of other places where they become interchangeable, misunderstood, misused and diluted. It's not clear really what that means and I think very often I need to be set straight and reminded what the terms are and what they mean and occasionally revisit things with Dr Romney so that I know what I'm talking about. So I'm glad you kind of gave us all that clarification. Thank you for that. For some people the experiences can be subtle and for others, as in your case, perhaps more overt and for others, as in your case, perhaps more overt. So when do the behaviors cross the line and become abuse?

Speaker 2:

We talked about just the definition of narcissism and the definition of abuse is a deliberate pattern of control, degradation or harm, whether physical, emotional, financial or sexual right. So the intersection of those is when narcissistic behaviors are consistently used to manipulate, intimidate or strip away a partner's independence, we would consider them abusive. We can all experience a narcissistic person Like we talked about. You go on a first date and you encounter this person and you're sitting at the table together and that's all that they can talk about is themselves. But when those behaviors are consistently applied and there's a resulting power imbalance, that's abuse. The power imbalance isn't always noticeable. It could just be that the victim starts to shrink themselves, but when that does happen, that's considered abuse. The hallmark of abusive narcissistic dynamics is when the partner loses their sense of safety, self-worth and autonomy. You lose who you are as a person.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no identity and feeling fearful. I think feeling fear is one of the sure signs that you may be in an abusive relationship and something needs to be looked at, because you should never be afraid with your intimate partner. You're a professional, licensed clinical social worker. What is available to survivors of these forms of abuse and what type of interventions do you typically recommend, and how might those be helpful?

Speaker 2:

I'd offer three types that are extremely helpful and either independently or all combined. The first is individual therapy. What individual therapy will do is really help you restore trust in your own perceptions, because with the gaslighting you really do question a lot of times whether basic everyday things are real or make sense. It also helps you to reduce your trauma symptoms and really develop coping skills around the abuse that you experienced. But survivors don't need just therapy. It's a multi-layered intervention that will help them navigate through this process. The goal is to recover, to reclaim our voice and our autonomy and then have a brighter future.

Speaker 2:

The second, and one of the most important for me, is support groups or peer communities. Narcissistic abusers are known for alienating survivors from their community of support. It happens slowly. You just kind of notice that people that were once there are no longer there anymore, and that happens because sometimes the abuser wants to intentionally isolate you. But sometimes it's because the abuser's behaviors are so extreme that people voluntarily disengage, and that's a great way for the abuser to turn it around on the other person. Your friends, who you think are your friends, don't even care about you.

Speaker 2:

And you don't know at the time that your friends are like. What are you doing with?

Speaker 2:

this person Right. So I remember, regarding support groups, when I first disengaged, I spent hours every day just listening to stories of survivors of this type of abuse and I remember people saying it's time to move on, stop listening to that negativity. But I needed that to understand. I wasn't crazy. It's kind of like you understand that when there's community, when other people are having similar experiences or are telling you this was not imaginary, this was real what you experienced. So it helped me not question my reality.

Speaker 2:

The third point I would say is psychoeducation. It's important to learn about narcissism gaslighting, coercive control and trauma bonding, because it gives you a language to describe your experience. I know even now, sometimes I'm having a conversation and I want to explain or express what happened and I just I don't know the words to do it because it all seems like it's not real. A lot of the times, and I was very much trauma bonded. Every time he didn't get a job he applied for, every time an external relationship of his didn't work out, it was my perception that either one the other person was wrong or two, that if I could just get him over the hump, everything would be better and he would see and understand my value, because at that point in the relationship my value was tied to who he was as a person, or his validation. Psychoeducation really helps reduce self-blame and increases clarity, which is often stolen by their manipulation.

Speaker 1:

Are those all forms of therapy that you're able to offer at the Family Place?

Speaker 2:

Yes, absolutely. We offer support groups, individual therapy and psychoeducation.

Speaker 1:

We do similar at Genesis. I know we have a long partnership together, 40 years maybe more. I'm not sure this is our 40th anniversary year. How long has the family place been around? 45 years, 45 years. You're our big sisters.

Speaker 2:

Well, a little bit. I think our longtime leaders Paige and Jan were sisters in the fight for a very, very long time. Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we're here just to carry on that legacy, of course. So, all of that being said, all of the experiences this went on for you for 10 years right, when a partner chooses to stay in the relationship with a narcissist for whatever reason, even if that decision is temporary, what tools or skills will benefit their own health and safety as they navigate the relationship? In other words, some people aren't ready to leave. Some people are reflecting, they're taking a closer look at what's happening to them and they may be getting that psychoeducation that you mentioned in the process of trying to understand what is going on here. And people may think, well, why is she staying with him if he's so abusive? But you need time and you need a safety plan, and there are tools and skills that I know we teach at Genesis and I'm sure you teach at the Family Place that can help people navigate this.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and, if you don't mind, I want to just comment on one thing you said Thank you for clarifying the choice to leave, just really an understanding that sometimes it could be because of financial situations, because of your family, because of cultural reasons that people don't leave. But I also really want to be clear so that people who are experiencing this can be validated in this way. When you are in these situations, you do not realize that anything is wrong. You do not realize that anything is wrong, and the times that you feel bad or you feel sad, you associate that with not having done enough for the abuser or not keeping the environment calm.

Speaker 2:

I spent so much time trying to level out the emotional tone of my household, just making sure everything stayed even and calm, so I didn't necessarily think that was wrong. I just thought that every time it didn't work, I had failed at doing it Right. So when people are saying about a choice to leave, I think one of the first things that happens with non-physical domestic violence is you have to identify there's a problem, and that's why it takes longer with this, because really you're just gaslit to the point that you even question your own thoughts and beliefs, right, yeah?

Speaker 1:

So yes, that's a good distinction, because there's a whole spectrum of abuse, there's a whole spectrum of experiences, so thank you for pointing that out.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and safety planning, of course, like you mentioned, is huge in our world, right, but it's very important to know your next steps and have them written out for you so that if you're ever in that kind of mode where you can't think for yourself or can't figure out what to do, you don't have much time you can look at a sheet of paper that tells you this is my next step, this is where I go, this is where I put my keys, this is who's going to pick up my children if I don't pick them up for school. So just that kind of plan. The second piece that is interesting to me I learned that this process is called the gray rock technique and it was really thought of by a mental health blogger by the name of Skylar. I don't know her last name, but I'm forever grateful. But it's really a way that you set an emotional boundary. Gray rock method, or gray rock technique, is responding with minimal emotion and detail.

Speaker 2:

So when you are engaging with your abuser, it is yes, it is no, it is okay. When they're trying to bait you into conflict, right, which is pretty regular. So you limit disclosures. Narcissists prey on vulnerability, so you try to share as little personal vulnerability as possible because they weaponize that weakness. So just remembering a lot of times when you're being baited, you know when it's happening just minimize the amount of conversation and feedback you give. And then the third is really anchoring. For me it was journaling, like journal, journal, journal and, if that's not your thing, just a way to record your experience, to help validate what's happening to you. I was able sometimes to go back to things when I was gaslit and I would say like, oh, that really did happen. You know it did happen because on this date I wrote it down and it helped me really feel like I wasn't crazy. Also, personal affirmations I'm not crazy, my experiences are real. That helps a lot as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I've heard a lot of people, a lot of survivors, talk about the crazy making. I think in one way, it's not the best way to say it, but it is a good way to describe it because it feels exactly like that. Let's just circle back to your personal experience for a moment. Do you feel like you have healed from that relationship? Is healing truly possible for survivors? And I think healing is a conditional term. It's different for everybody, and if you don't like that term, when would you know that you're on the other side of something like this?

Speaker 2:

I honestly, some days I don't feel like I'll ever heal or be on the other side. It can take years to really fully recover from the damage that's done, just because of the psychological manipulation. I mean that is the hardest part. When you don't trust the thoughts that are in your head, that is very, very hard to recover from. I feel like I have a toe on the other side because I'm doing things like having these conversations and I'm able to support people through a peer support group, but I am not healed. I'm triggered daily in my everyday life.

Speaker 1:

I'm so sorry to hear that and I hope that this is a good experience for you, kind of being able to talk about your story in a supportive environment, because we support you and, of course, the first rule of working with survivors is to believe her right, and we know that your experience happened. You are not crazy and you are very much doing, I think, what you were called to do. Your purpose is to help others and support others who have similar experiences. Changing subjects for a moment and looking at the abuser what are the treatment modalities for narcissistic offenders and do they work?

Speaker 2:

So interventions for people with narcissistic traits or narcissistic personality disorder are complex, because one of the core features of narcissism is lack of insight and resistance to admitting problems. So if you have this lack of insight and you can't identify what the problem is, how would you ever seek help voluntarily? Narcissists typically come to therapy because they've been court-ordered to do so, because of a legal or professional conflict or relationship breakdown. Partner to a narcissist may say I'm not going to stay with you unless you go to therapy. And if their existence is built on that partner, either financially or from a presentation perspective, like how the world perceives them, they will commit to do it that way. Research indicates that the most effective intervention is long-term psychotherapy. But change is really only as possible as much as they want to invest in it. But you also have to remember that when it's a personality disorder, the change or the work has to benefit them. That's how they will receive it and that's the only way they'll participate in it. And so I'll give you an example.

Speaker 2:

A narcissistic partner can learn that when they call you stupid, you don't like it right. So if they choose to stop, they'll stop calling you stupid, but they will not feel the emotion of it. It's only because a consequence has been applied in that setting and that skill is not transferable. So I can say it doesn't benefit me as a survivor to say to a narcissistic personality disorder when you call me stupid, it makes me feel bad. They don't connect with that. You don't call me stupid again, or I'm going to leave you and this won't be met and this won't be met and this won't be met.

Speaker 2:

That's what they register with. So their brain tells them OK, if I call her stupid, then the paycheck stop or the taking care of the children stops or whatever. It is the way that you support their behavior that will stop. That is how the behavior changes. But even those small changes alone require persistence and accountability. Like, the progress with these type of people is often slow and uneven, but research varies on whether you can be cured from it or not. Like, most people say no, you can't right, it's a personality disorder. But I think there are ways that people can choose to change behaviors with that person that they are interacting in. Again, it's important to know it's not transferable.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's really eye-opening what you shared there, and I think the very first step has to come from that person being open to even receiving any type of information that would be negative or about changing their own personality. So that is incredibly challenging and not having people like that in your life would be key right to not having to be on the other side of this at any point. What resources would you recommend for listeners who want to explore this topic, especially those who might be experiencing abuse from a narcissistic partner?

Speaker 2:

First, I would always emphasize safety right. If you are searching on the internet, clear your browser history, use safe devices, avoid leaving books or emails where your partner can find them. But I look at help in three different ways. The first is education, crisis and healing. So for education, there are a couple of things I'll tell you real briefly and I hope we can post them at the end because it's a lot of information.

Speaker 2:

But there's a Dr Les Carter that has a YouTube channel that speaks about all phases of narcissism and helps with identification and movement away from narcissists. It's called Surviving Narcissism TV. And another website resource is Out of the Fog and that helps family members and loved ones of people who suffer with personality disorders. But on that website there are tons of toolkits that are helpful when you're in crisis. The National Domestic Hotline right National Domestic Violence Hotline but also local providers like Genesis in the Family Place, can be helpful For healing. I would say Therapy, support Groups and Education. One of the best books I have ever read is it's Not you Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People by Dr Romani.

Speaker 1:

Yes, she's fantastic, she's amazing.

Speaker 2:

I love it and it's so interesting because I heard her audio book first and then I went and bought the book and then was highlighting it, so it's a huge tool for me. But what I love about it is that she shifts the focus from why does he do that? To how to help the survivor heal, and that's so important because there's so much time spent trying to understand or rationalize the reasons behind his behaviors that we lose sight of the victim who experienced the behaviors most intimately and deeply, and really that's where we need to focus, right, I love that about her work. And then there's a couple of folks on Instagram that I find extremely helpful when I just need that kind of quick dopamine hit. One is how to Love a Battered Woman.

Speaker 2:

It's a narcissistic, abusive recovery coach. Another one is WEAV. W-e-a-v Told Me how to Navigate Breakups and Narcissistic Abuse. And the last one I'll give you is Daniel Chidiak. I went and tried to listen to how he's saying his name professionally, but it's C-H-I-D-I-A-C, and he has a show and a podcast and an Instagram page called the Way Through, and really those are just quick sound bites of like do you feel that you're going crazy because this happened? And no, you aren't going crazy. So just those quick motivational pieces are often necessary sometimes.

Speaker 1:

Those are so interesting. I'm going to have to look them up and, yeah, we can share those links in the notes when the episode goes live. Tiffany Tate, it's been a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you for being on the show and for sharing your story with us.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the platform.

Speaker 1:

Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to give women in abusive situations a way out. We are committed to our mission of providing safety, shelter and support for women and children who have experienced domestic violence and to raise awareness regarding its cause, prevalence and impact. Join us in creating a societal shift on how people think about domestic violence. You can learn more at GenesisShelterorg and when you follow us on social media on Facebook and Instagram at Genesis Women's Shelter and on X at Genesis Shelter the Genesis, seven days a week, by call or text at 214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.