Genesis The Podcast

Financial Control Is Violence, And There Are Paths To Freedom

• Genesis Women's Shelter & Support

Share episode

What if the most powerful weapon in an abusive relationship isn’t a fist, but a login? We sit down with Jordyn Lawson, Chief Residential Officer at Genesis Women’s Shelter & Support, to unpack how financial abuse and coerced debt quietly trap survivors—even long after they leave. From paychecks diverted into hidden accounts to loans opened under threat or deception, money becomes a leash: it governs housing, food, credit, and the ability to move toward safety.

Jordyn shares what frontline work reveals: the overwhelming prevalence of financial control, the shock of discovering debts for cars or even boats survivors never saw, and why credit scores can become gatekeepers to a new home or job. We connect the dots between personal harm and public cost—billions lost to intimate partner violence, millions of workdays missed, and the chilling number of workplace homicides tied to abusers. Most importantly, we map the way forward: how to spot red flags, how loved ones can support without minimizing, and how workplaces should prepare to protect employees targeted by abusers.

There’s real hope in policy and practice. We highlight legal reforms that recognize coerced debt as identity theft in Texas, how survivors can challenge fraudulent accounts, and why advocacy partnerships streamline credit repair with minimal cost. We also dig into financial literacy strategies that restore control—pulling credit reports on safe devices, securing independent accounts, documenting coercion, and planning for deposits and child care. Along the way, we confront enduring myths about who works, who controls the money, and why “everyone fights about finances” is not a free pass for abuse.

If you care about safety, equity, or simply want to help someone you love, this conversation gives you clear tools and next steps. Listen, share with a friend, and help us push for policies and workplace practices that put safety first. If this episode resonates, subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: what change would most improve financial safety for survivors?

SPEAKER_00:

According to the National Network to End Domestic Violence, financial abuse occurs in ninety-nine percent of abusive relationships and is, quote, one of the most powerful methods of keeping a survivor trapped in an abusive relationship and deeply diminishes the victim's ability to stay safe after leaving an abusive partner. In many cases of financial abuse, survivors also experience coerced debt, or debt incurred by an abusive partner in the name of his victim, that further complicates their safety and ability to rebuild their lives. Here to explore these topics is Jordan Lawson, a licensed professional counselor supervisor and chief residential officer of Genesis Women's Shelter and Support. I'm Maria McMullen, and this is Genesis, the podcast. Jordan Lawson is Chief Residential Officer of Genesis Women's Shelter and Support in Dallas, Texas. She has nearly 20 years of experience working in crisis intervention, counseling and advocacy, and domestic violence services. A key member of the Genesis staff for 13 years, Jordan oversees all staff and programming on the Genesis residential campus, including emergency shelter and transitional housing. Also including 24-hour crisis hotline, client intake, advocacy counseling, occupational therapy, and children's programming. By making certain that all programs are working together with a trauma-informed focus, she ensures the best quality and most effective services for all Genesis families. Recognized as a leading expert on issues related to violence against women, Jordan also presents at conferences, conducts trainings across the country, and provides expert testimony on the dynamics of family violence in both criminal and family court. Jordan, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me back. And today we are together to talk about the subject of financial abuse and specifically coerced debt experienced by domestic violence survivors. And we both know, and perhaps many people listening do as well, that financial abuse is a common experience for survivors of domestic violence. How would you define financial abuse?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm so grateful for this conversation and how much it seems to be, or we're having the ability to just talk about these more directly and clearly, especially in the last few years. I think people are aware that financial abuse can be not allowing somebody to work, right? There's this narrative out there that women who've experienced domestic violence maybe aren't allowed to work or they're they do work, but their money is taken away from them. Both of those are very true. But what we've learned more and more through hearing from survivors of financial abuse is just how complex and how intricate and difficult of a tactic financial abuse is. So we hear from clients who say that they don't they have direct deposit for their paycheck, but they don't have access to the bank account that the money is directly deposited into. We hear clients who talk about having to work multiple jobs and pay all of the bills, that the sort of budget breakdown that's been compiled by their abuser is that her money will pay the mortgage and it'll pay the electric and it'll pay the child care for the children and it'll pay all of the bills, and his money will go to all of the fun things or all of the extra things he wants, and of course, is never benefiting her. And so, even stories like I had a client one time who would talk about being given a very small allowance for food on a weekly basis for her and her four kids. And so she talked about one of the things that she would do is make a really big pot of spaghetti because she could make that go for even a couple of days, right? But that her abuser would buy junk food and fast food and come home and eat Taco Bell or eat pizza or all the food that he was spending money on in front of them while her and her kids sat there and had spaghetti for the third day in a row. Right. So it is really any sort of interference with an individual's right to access to information about the finances for the family, access to literally the finances in order to get their needs met, the ability to not be able to meet my needs because we live in a world where in order to get your needs met, you usually have to buy everything. We have to pay for water, we have to pay for housing, we have to pay for clothes, we have to pay for food. So not allowing people the ability to independently meet their needs.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's a few good examples. There are many more. The experiences of survivors are, of course, unique to their own financial circumstances and relationships. Now let's go just a little bit further into the topic and talk about coerced debt, what it is, and in particular within the context of domestic violence.

SPEAKER_01:

So the word coercion means to trick or manipulate, to force somebody, right? And so what we know coerced debt to be is times where victims of domestic violence are being forced, threatened, or even manipulated and tricked into signing for certain loans or car loan or things that would accrue debt on her social security number, on her credit score. But she didn't readily and independently agree to that loan. It was out of coercion. She did it out of fear because there was a threat. If you don't sign your name to this loan, I'm going to punish you in this way. We hear from women who were, of course, manipulated, tricked into signing these documents because they didn't know what they were. And it was in the middle of a very elevated argument and fight, and he was talking a mile a minute, and I just signed papers to get it over with because I was so overwhelmed and didn't know what to do. And so I just signed it without reading anything. At Genesis, we actually try to help all of our clients pull their credit report because we've become so aware of this as a tactic of financial abuse, we'll assist our clients in pulling their credit report and horrifically and sadly have sat with so many clients who had no idea some of the debt that was on their social security number that was on their name until they got that credit report. I s I sat with a client and talked to her, and she was just so sad and hurt and scared because when she pulled her credit report, she found out that a boat had been bought in her name and she didn't, she had no idea. She doesn't know where the boat is, she doesn't know what happened to the boat. Does the boat still exist in attachment to the abuser? But she for sure didn't know that those thousands of dollars that it cost to get the loan for the boat were put solely in her name and negatively affecting her credit score, which of course means her ability to function independently, her future.

SPEAKER_00:

That's incredible and extremely sad. Now, in your experience, what is the prevalence of both financial abuse and coerced debt among domestic violence survivors? So, in other words, how big is this issue?

SPEAKER_01:

So just a reminder to our audience that we know that in the state of Texas, one in three women will experience domestic violence in their lifetime. And of those, what we're hearing is that 94 to 99% of victims of domestic violence will report experiencing some form of financial abuse. To be really honest with you, Maria, financial abuse seems like such an effective tactic that I just think it's 100%. I just can't help but wonder if the 93% is because she didn't know exactly what all was going on, yeah, or anything. Because it's just such an effective tactic horrifically. But 93 to 94% of victims of domestic violence, all the way up to 99% of victims of domestic violence, will say that their ability to independently take care of themselves through financial means or to have access to the finances that are absolutely affecting them and their children is being affected and controlled by their abuser. And so, you know, that's on an individual level, but I think something that's really important for us to be aware of is this is having an impact on all of us because it absolutely is impacting us on a national level and on our economy. The stats show that the cost of intimate partner violence is over$8 billion a year, that survivors of intimate partner violence they lose over 8 million days of working, so having to take sick time because of a direct incident of domestic violence or the impact of domestic violence, 8 million working days a year are lost by those that are in the working sector. We also hear that 21 to 60% of survivors will actually lose their job directly because of domestic violence, right? We hear about abusers who will show up to the workplace or call the workplace repeatedly and harass her to the point where HR just says, I don't know if this is gonna work. We hear from a lot of victims who say, I just quit because it was the only way to make him stop. It was the only way to keep him from coming up there. And so it has a major impact on our economy. Another stat that I think is really important because we always want to make sure that we highlight the danger of domestic violence is that between 2003 and 2008, 142 women were murdered in the workplace. And 78% of women killed in the workplace during this time frame, it was because of intimate partner violence. And they were killed by their abuser. They were killed by their abuser.

SPEAKER_00:

So knowing all of that, then how do financial abuse and coerced debt typically affect a survivor's ability to leave an abusive situation?

SPEAKER_01:

I think what's really important for people to think about is whether we like it or not, money is the root of everything, right? Financial means are how you are take care of yourself. It's how you get your needs met. And so if I don't have access to those finances, it's just a literal inability to leave. If I can't pay for the next place to stay, I can't leave because I can't go to the next place. I was telling you the story about the mom with the spaghetti, right? Having to feed her children's spaghetti while the abuser would eat Taco Bell. I actually worked with her at our non-residential location. So our location where we see clients by appointment, but they don't live with us. And I identified pretty quickly as her therapist that she had no way of leaving this abusive relationship because she had zero financial means, right? Zero access to finances. The isolation from resources and from support that her abuser was using against her was so strong that helping her get employment was just not going to be an option, right? She had four children. And so childcare was gonna be a huge part of her being able to even get employment. And so we started talking at that time about whether or not going into shelter or even our transitional living program was an option because it really just came apparent that the only way to leave her abusive partner was to have a very supportive place to go that could really be the structure that meets all of her needs and all of her children's meetings for a time period for her to then be able to gain access to resources to be able to do it, right? And so I think the reality of financial abuse is there are women who are struggling to leave because they literally don't have access to putting the a down payment down on the next place to go. And so it it really is a isolation from being able to be independent, make decisions from yourself, be able to keep yourself safe. It's a very effective way to trap someone. One of the things that Jan talks about all the time and I talk about all the time is just I feel like the two most effective strategies are children and money, right? If you are controlling or threatening or impacting the children of the money, it's just the way that you're gonna get a woman to do what you want her to do.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Now, what are some of the short-term and long-term impacts of coerced debt on survivors' financial health and emotional well-being?

SPEAKER_01:

I think the short term is again just not having access to being able to get what I need because I'm having to pay a monthly debt payment every month. We talk to a lot of clients who have so much that they're trying to pay off in debt that it's really having a giant impact on their ability to be financially stable month after month. Yeah. And again, most of their debt that they're aware of was coerced or put on them through the abusive experience with their partner. Even the impact of the credit score. So nowadays, if you want to go get an apartment or get a home loan or get anywhere to have a place to stay, they pull your credit report. And whether or not you have an acceptable credit rating will say whether or not they're gonna lease to you or they're going to allow you access to this property. And so we have a lot of clients who are trying to leave their abusive partner, but they can't get an apartment complex to accept them because their credit report's so low.

SPEAKER_00:

And not only that, they probably don't have the financial resources to secure the lease, such as first and last month's payment, security deposit, and so on. It can cost thousands of dollars before you even walk in the door of a new apartment.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we've definitely talked on this podcast before about the housing crisis here in DFW. And affordable housing is an issue all over our country. If you combine not just the affordable housing concern, but then a woman's access to financial means, it just absolutely is a barrier to her seeking safety.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So along those lines, let's talk about how people can recognize coerced debt, how they may be a victim of that, and how they might respond to it. What red flags might indicate that someone is experiencing financial abuse or coerced debt?

SPEAKER_01:

So reminder that in its roots, domestic violence boils down to power and control, right? An abuser trying to assert power and control over somebody to get them to do what they want. So majority of the red flags are really gonna point to having control and trying to control, right? I think some red flags may be if you know that there are bank accounts somewhere, but you don't have the login, you don't have the information, it's a red flag. And hear me say, just because we have women listening to this podcast, even if it's not an abusive relationship, if you don't know what bank you're banking with or how to get access, you deserve to have access. And it's important to be aware of all of that for our for our financial safety. In an abusive situation, trying to gain access to that information would be met with a trying to dominate and trying to either again manipulate or threaten or just literally cut off information. So if you try to ask questions about financial information about your family, if you're trying to say, hey, I noticed that we bought this thing, how much was that? And you're really not given information, you can tell when somebody's fluffing the number or trying to say, Oh, it's not that much, that that could definitely be a red flag, especially if it's paired with not having access to meet your own individual needs. So if you're saying, hey, I really have to pay this thing, or I really want to buy this thing for myself, of course, if it's reasonable and this issue is sometimes really complicated and hard for people to talk about because it can be really normal and common for couples to have conflict in their relationships about money, right? Couples therapists will tell you money is one of the main things that couples argue about, right? But if I'm going to my husband or my partner and I'm saying, hey, I'd really like to spend our money on this, and I'm just completely denied a voice in that conversation. I'm not allowed to assert what I would like or need. I'm not allowed to then get the access to the money to be able to purchase that thing ever. I think that's a red flag, right? If the financial decisions are always on one person and the other person just has to deal with the impact of it, that's a red flag. Of course. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, trying to respond to all of that, how can friends, family members, or professionals sensitively support someone who is facing these challenges?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think one of the main things is to delicately and with care really make sure that we're acknowledging how dangerous of an issue this is. Sometimes, because financial abuse is not physical abuse, it can be downgraded as, oh, he's just really controlling with the money. But I think it's important for people to really be aware of what impact this is having on somebody. Financial abuse, not knowing whether or not my immediate needs are going to be met or I'm gonna be able to meet the needs of my children because I don't have control over this, I don't have access to this. This could cause PTSD symptoms. This could cause anxiety, trauma symptoms. And so I think first and foremost, a lot of times it's just really understanding and not minimizing the seriousness of financial abuse. We talk about on this podcast a lot the reality that domestic violence escalates. And if he's never hit her before, it doesn't mean that this cannot become a very dangerous situation. Maria, you know that I participate on the Dallas County Fatality Review for Genesis, where we go back and do a postmortem on the situation where a woman was killed by her abusive partner. We're really trying to look at what happened to see how we could do what we do better. And there are just multiple cases where the family would report to the police that they didn't have any idea that domestic violence was going on, but we knew he was really controlling with the money. We knew that he changed jobs frequently and there was financial instability that was really confusing and erratic and chaotic. Abusers tend to not be financially stable. They tend to be spend in access in excess. And so there does seem to be this not only is it a demand that I control all of money, but then there's this chaotic spending that creates uh financial crisis or financial issues within the family a lot. And so I've heard cases repeatedly where the family was aware of the financial abuse, but didn't know that was abuse and didn't know to call that domestic violence. And so I just would want people to know that it is not only is it having a really difficult and serious impact on her currently, it also has some really dangerous implications.

SPEAKER_00:

So that is that kind of brings me to the next question that I had, because for the family not to know that this type of financial instability could be a warning sign of domestic violence, that would be one misconception, right? What are some other misconceptions around financial abuse or coerced debt?

SPEAKER_01:

I think a lot of times, again, like we were talking about the emotional, the traumatic impact of it, right? That it's just a financial stressor. I think the truth is financial stresses can cause trauma. And that trauma then can be really debilitating or really negatively impactful on all the other areas of her functioning in her life. So again, I think a big part of the financial abuse myth would be that it's not that impactful, or it's not that serious. Another myth I think is that the idea that victims of domestic violence aren't working. In the beginning stages of the movement of domestic violence, talking about the 60s and the 70s, not as many women were in the workplace. And so financial abuse was recognized that time as women who were forced to stay home with the kids and they were stay-at-home moms. And so then they did not have access to finances because simply because they weren't working. And that can be true today. We do see that today, especially at times when it's partnered with reproductive abuse, where she's forced to become, she's made to be pregnant repeatedly, have multiple kids. But what we see more often than not, and I'll tell you, Maria, I hear it over and over, is women who are working two, three jobs. She's working her butt off. She's working so many hours a week to try to keep the family financially afloat. He's not working at all. But again, she just because she's working doesn't mean that she's getting access to that money. She's either having to physically hand that check over to him or it's going into an account that she really doesn't have control over. Or a lot of times, what I hear is that even if she does have access to that account, he's just spending it faster than she can make it come in. Yeah, it's really incredible.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's talk about legal protections for victims of coerced debt or financial abuse. What's out there for to protect them? What resources currently exist for survivors of coerced death?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, really excitedly, a couple of years ago, the law regarding identity theft in Texas changed. Prior to this, identity theft did not recognize domestic violence because it said that debt accrued within a marriage or within a common law relationship was then halved, right? Was then shared property between the two people. And so it it didn't recognize anybody who was married as having experienced identity theft. So thankfully, a couple of years ago, the law was changed to include domestic violence. And so we actually have the ability to seek relief from debt that was accrued put upon her by coercion, by course debt. There is steps that we can take within the legal system. Right now, Genesis has a really strong partnership with the Texas Advocacy Project to be able to directly refer our clients to them. And then they're supporting our clients with the paperwork that needs to be filed, both with the court system to get the finding of identity theft due to domestic violence, but also then the paperwork that you send to the credit report companies to say, hey, this isn't my debt. This isn't, can you fix my score? It should be better than this. And so we're really excited. In the last couple of years, we've referred almost 50 clients to them, and they continue to support our clients and getting support and getting relief in that area.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it is an extremely helpful program, very unique, very defined to this specific type of abuse. It also reminds me, and I just want to bring it up again, and as I bring it up again and again on this podcast, is that once again, the onus is on the victim to correct a problem that was created by an abuser. And it's really unfortunate and it's very unfair. And just listening to what you said about pursuing getting your identity back or removing coerced debt from your credit score or your credit record and history, that's going to cost money too. And take so much time.

SPEAKER_01:

Again, thankfully for Genesis clients, we have this direct partnership with Texas Advocacy Project. And so they're repres they are being represented at no cost, which is really important and helpful. But you're right, for anybody else trying to do it, it could cost money, it takes time. There is a court hearing you have to take off work to go to. You were asking earlier about the long-term impact of financial abuse. And I think you've hit the nail on the head. I have heard from clients who have ended the relationship with their abusive partner. They have worked on a safety plan with their advocate and counselor. They've taken all of these steps to gain safety, but what they're still having to deal with is the course debt. They're years after the fact still having to write that check. Does anybody write checks anymore? You know what I mean? Paying that payment to whatever debt place for something that they didn't buy or they didn't want that was forced upon them. And so I think it is that example of just how just unfair and just how emotionally how it's just an emotional burden, a time burden, just an awful impact.

SPEAKER_00:

It's an insidious thing to do to another person to wrap them up and really keep them under your control, potentially for decades after the breakup or separation by making them pay off this type of debt.

SPEAKER_01:

And I didn't say it earlier, but it's popping in my head as we're talking about this, especially when you're using the word insidious. The other one we're seeing debt that's being put on the kids' social security card number. So we are trying to pull as many clients' credit reports and help them with that as possible. But for many clients, we're going ahead and looking up their child's social security number too. Because we're seeing debt that was their name and social security number was used to take out a credit card or to take out a loan. I don't know why I'm surprised by that. It actually makes me sick to my stomach. It's awful, isn't it? You're completely negatively impacting a child's future before they're even started.

SPEAKER_00:

Are there any resources online that you are familiar with that we could refer listeners to to look into this and if they want to explore how to get help with financial abuse or coerced debt?

SPEAKER_01:

So the Texas Appleseed Project, if you were to Google Texas Appleseed Project, their website will come up and they've got some really good information on CORES debt and on resources. The Texas Advocacy Project also has some good stuff. The National Network to End Domestic Violence has some really important education about financial abuse on its website as well. And then of course Genesis continues to have stuff within our website.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about policy for a minute. What changes would you like to see in policy, law, or public awareness regarding coerced debt and domestic violence?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think first and foremost, it's important because we have so many listeners from all over, not just Texas, to hear though. When I talk about the legislative change where victims of domestic violence could gain access to relief like identity fraud, that is in Texas. That's not an and there are other states where that is true too, but not all 50 states. So I think about just wanting to advocate for all 50 states to recognize this as such an important issue and policies on a national level that would recognize this. So at the very least, she can get some relief, she can get some support when she figures out that it's happening. I think that there's policies that are being talked about, but continue, we continue to want to assert the issue of domestic violence within those conversations on predatory lending, on why is it that somebody can go take out a loan and be able to write somebody else's name and Social Security on it and not be pursued for criminal fraud? And they potentially can, depending on what the situation is. But the policies are really strict on that. So I think if conversations are being had about predatory lending within our state, about making sure that loans are more protective of who, you know, not just going onto a website and filling in information and then all of a sudden you qualified for this new thing, but there's more of an ability to ensure that the person applying for this has the right to use that information. I think the issue of domestic violence being inserted into those conversations would be really important. It makes me think of Jan telling the story that she was working at Genesis. She was advocating in the issue of violence against women, financial abuse towards women, in the days where she couldn't independently sign for a credit card for herself. Her husband had to sign for her to be able to have a financial a credit card. I think to your point, just making sure we're examining certain financial policies and financial laws and seeing is there any patriarchy in there that continues to There is.

unknown:

There is.

SPEAKER_01:

That continues to negatively impact women disproportionately. It negatively has an impact on women that we're just not aware of and we're not addressing.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, we could start, yeah, we could start with just the fact that women make at least 20% less than men doing the same job. That in itself would be a different form of financial abuse. By not allowing women to earn the same amount of salary as a man in the same job is an abuse of power.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, absolutely. It also makes me think of family court, Maria, because I've literally seen it multiple times in family court where a abusive father is using the fact that he makes more money as the reason why he should have sole custody of the children, right? And so you think about what's the individual financial abuse within that relationship, because I guarantee that it's there. Right. But then you just go, but is she actually been given the chance to make enough money or is as much money or right as much as she's capable of for sure? Probably not.

SPEAKER_00:

Probably not.

SPEAKER_01:

I think you've had her on here before. If not, I'm putting it out there right now for this podcast to happen. But Ruth does a really amazing presentation on human resources and what different corporations and companies should consider from an HR place. As we're talking about this and we're talking about policy changes and we're talking about systems that need change, I just can't help but think about that as well. That being able to really look within our businesses and our companies and say, hey, domestic violence is a reality within your company, right? One in three women. So if you have more than three women in your work or more than one woman in your workplace, it is happening. And so what are your HR policies? What are you prepared for so that if he starts those tactics of trying to interfere, if he is trying to come up there, you have the ability to support her and help her and not victimize her further by making it her fault that he did this?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, those are excellent points. And we're all responsible for responding to this and supporting survivors of domestic violence. Before I let you go, I want to get some additional resources to offer to listeners on this topic. What would you recommend in terms of websites, books, and so on if people want to learn more about coerced debt and financial abuse?

SPEAKER_01:

Like I said, looking up the different agencies and programs that are really focused heavily on financial abuse, like the Texas Appleseed Project, has a lot of access to really good information. We also work with an agency here in Dallas called Ascend Dallas. We also work with Jewish Family Services. Both of those are really great programs on financial literacy and financial coaching. And so they have some great information on their websites as well. What Genesis has done is because a couple of years ago, we started saying and asking ourselves, okay, if 93 to 99% of victims of domestic violence are experiencing financial abuse, are we directly having conversations with, are we directly supporting 93 to 99% of our clients on the specific issue of financial abuse? And to be really honest with Miriam, we weren't. We were too in too dependent upon her saying that she was experiencing financial abuse and then also not aware enough on what we needed to do, what steps we needed to take to help her. So Genesis has changed the way we do our advocacy services to be a lot more focused on this issue of financial abuse and therefore helping her gain financial freedom, financial safety by being able to teach financial literacy skills. So we have financial literacy groups, financial literacy curriculums that we're referring the client to, being able to help her pull her credit report. But I think within that, too, is just really trying to continue to promote that empowerment of women. You have the right to know this information. You have the right to know what's impacting you financially. It is a lot bigger than just what you spend every day, the long-term impacts of finances, right? And so it's not even just the right to the information, but just really empowering women to gain that education and gain that awareness. And so I think promoting that empowerment specifically to women to know what's going on, what are the different financial things mean, and really saying, hey, a lot of this stuff is really confusing. Like banking terms can be really hard sometimes. But we are smart enough and good enough to be able to figure this out. Let's help each other, let's Google some words to look up the definition.

SPEAKER_00:

Proactive is always best. Yes. Right. So just to add to all of that, and those are great resources for all of us, there is a coerced debt toolkit available through Texas Appleseed. It's pretty comprehensive. It talks uh it explains what coerced debt is, which you have done in this episode, and then walks through some scenarios where you may be concerned that you are a victim of coerced debt or financial abuse and how you can find out to pull your own credit reports. And this can be done in a on your own personal computer without even having to contact anyone. So that information is available online at the website financialabusehelp.org. I also noticed some additional information related to the toolkit on Texaslawhelp.org. And so you can find those on their website by searching for coerce debt. What else could listeners do to get involved in supporting survivors or advocating for systemic change related to this topic? For instance, if you're the loved one or friend or family member of someone that you really believe is experiencing financial abuse or coerced debt, how can you help them?

SPEAKER_01:

I think like we talked about a little bit ago, the big thing is just really not minimizing the impact of it, but being very clear to her that it's not right what's happening. It's not okay, this impact, it's not normal, right? So earlier I said that money can be a really common thing for couples to fight about, right? But it's within those arguments, it's within those dynamics that you can see whether or not this is an unhealthy couple who don't spend their money the same way and have different values on money and they need to work this through, right? A healthy couple that is working on things but still argue, or is this domestic violence? Is this toxic? Is this abusive? Because within these dynamics, there's power and control. So if you can really fight through this tendency to normalize this issue and go, everybody fights about money, and really see, okay, but when you guys fight about money, how does it make you feel? When you try to have conversations about the family budget or about what was this and how did we spend this, or hey, we have a new truck. How much did that cost? Where did that come from? Right. Where's the boat? Where's the boat? Yeah. I still want to know. Yes. Then if you're if you ask any of these questions and you're met with just silence, right? Or refusal for information, if you're met with threats, if you're met with being made to feel guilty or bad for questioning, if you're scared to ask those questions because you're worried about what the reaction would be, oh, I think he'll explode and then it'll be this thing. Those are those warning signs that there's something more leaning towards abusive within this issue than just we fight about money, right? I get asked all the time what's the difference between a couple arguing and domestic violence. And it really is this line of fear. It's really this line of authority and being in trouble or being concerned that you're gonna be in trouble, right? All relationships have arguments, but not all relationships have that dynamic where I'm afraid to confront my partner or I'm afraid to disagree with my partner because I'm afraid of getting in trouble. If that is how the victim feels, or is that if that's how the person feels, then that's a huge red flag that this could be an abusive relationship, that there are abusive dynamics within this. So especially if that's around the issue of money, I would want us to not normalize it and not override it or minimize it by saying, oh, we all fight about money. I would want somebody to be sensitive and to be caring, but direct with their friend or family member and say, no, I think this is I think this is pretty bad. I think this is really having an impact on you. I don't think it's okay what's happening here. This isn't normal. This isn't the normal way that couples fight about money.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and as I've heard you say before, to indicate I'm asking you these questions or talking to you about this because I'm very concerned for you. Right. And then the next step on all of that would be let me give you this website or take you to this person to talk so we can get some of this straightened out and get your questions answered and get some help.

SPEAKER_01:

When friends and family ask us what to say to the person that they're scared for all the time, our biggest answer is you don't really have to say much. You just have to really communicate how much you believe them, how much you care about them, or you're worried about them, and then refer them to us. We'd want anybody to feel like they have to become experts on certain topics or issues. We're putting that work in. So we want to be able to be that resource. And so you can call our 24-hour hotline at 214-946-4357. And our hotline specialists are able to talk to somebody who is identifying themselves as the victim of domestic violence. We talk to friends and family members all the time who are asking, what do I do here? What do I say here? So we could support you that way. We have a friends and family group that we offer where we invite friends and family to come in so that we can talk a little bit more specifically about their situation and see if we can provide, again, more specific guidance or answers to their questions of what to say. But mostly it's not about saying the perfect thing. It's about just communicating care, communicating support that you are there when they're ready. It's about understanding that this is a very complicated and complex issue. So she's probably not going to change everything the first time that you talk to her, right? Change is hard. She's got a lot that she will potentially lose, and that would, there's a lot of grief behind it. And so it's just a continuance of, I'm here for you. I'm here for you. A continuance of compassion and just respect that this is really complicated and hard. And patience. Patience.

SPEAKER_00:

Need some patience. This didn't happen overnight, and so it's not going to be resolved immediately.

SPEAKER_01:

No, if it could be resolved immediately, there wouldn't need to be a Genesis. We would have done it by now. It would have been done, I swear. Women fix stuff all the time. If we could, we would.

SPEAKER_00:

We do. We certainly do. Please visit our website at genesyshelter.org for more information about the topic in today's show and anything else related to domestic violence. Jordan Lawson, thank you for being here today. Thanks for having me, Maria. Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to give women in abusive situations a way out. We are committed to our mission of providing safety, shelter, and support for women and children who have experienced domestic violence and to raise awareness regarding its cause, prevalence, and impact. Join us in creating a societal shift on how people think about domestic violence. You can learn more at GenesisShelter.org and when you follow us on social media, on Facebook and Instagram at Genesis Women's Shelter, and on X at Genesis Shelter. The Genesis Helpline is available twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, by call or text at 214-946-HELP. 214-946-4357.